Against Reanimator:
in:
+2 Containment Priest
+2 RiP
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Relic of Progenitus
out:
-1 Jitte
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Stoneforge
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Brimaz
-2 Mirran Crusader
On the draw I also add 1 Pithing Needle and a stoneforge and take out 2 Thalia
If you know they have Dread of Night/Massacre, boarding changes slightly, as you want to keep Brimaz and a mirran Crusader for 2 Flickerwisp. And if you are on the draw, Thalia might be bumped down to 1 for the 4th stoneforge, and probably try to find room for the sword of fire and ice again.
Flickerwisp is pretty good against reanimator in general, so I would be really hesitant to board those out, as they have wide applications. Once you establish control, reanimator is pretty awful deck, so any beaters will do, you do not need to end it fast. The Stoneforge light package is to have access to lifegain in batterskull for racing situations. But usually your removal should just trump them, but you can still lose to turn 1-2 griselbrand because of the advantages it gives you. That is why I am siding in needle on the draw, as I want more outs against turn 1/2 Griselbrand.
It's interesting how little consensus there is.
We have:
- Board out the whole package
- Board out just Jitte
- Board out 1 Sfm, Jitte
- Board out 2 SfM, Jitte, Sofi
I think I remember someone months ago saying that they even kept Jitte.
I don't really see the logic with Needle on the draw. If they have a t1 Griselbrand then they already get to draw their deck, so it's only doing anything vs a t2 Griselbrand. If anything I would side it in on the play, where you now have an additional t1 play and you can also use it to hit Polluted Delta. I also don't see the logic of -2 Thalia on the draw. I just want to keep cards with the maximum chance of having relevance in the matchup and Thalia has a higher chance of being relevant than say, Flickerwisp, even if she might be slow or awkward if they have a fast start or you have too many non-creature spells.
I think there may not actually be an optimal boarding strategy because most of the DnT cards have some % chance of being the exact card that wins a particular Reanimator game, but the ratio that these various situation occur isn't super predictable. How your opponent chooses to play the matchup also isn't predictable (go for a fast start that loses to a Karakas? Board out countermagic?) and that affects whether your boarding was correct. I've won with every card in the deck, SfM has been good for me, SfM has been very bad for me. Were we to test 1000 post-board games with stock DnT vs stock Reanimator, it's totally possible that the 'board out the SfM package' strategy wins roughly as often as the 'keep the SfM package' strategy, they just win different games, with the first strategy winning more games via lock pieces and the second strategy losing fewer grindy games or to racing. (I think the any 'don't board in all your removal' plan would almost certainly win fewer games though.)
iatee: Relic-Warder is surely a strong card, but almost everytime I had an option to search it, Mangara did the same trick. Sure it's a turn slower, but there's almost always been a way to play the game that I've had a turn to wait before it gets active. The decision to drop the Leonin gave me more space in the sideboard. Oh and the Miracles, I do admit that Pia and Kiran is powerful against them. I have just faced Terminus too often and without Karakas the couple won't have that big impact so I have decided to try some planeswalkers as they're more resilient. Or I might just have been playing wrongly against the deck which gives me the feeling of a not-too-good match up.
I also see it quite interesting how the thoughts differ about sideboarding, but here's how I would board:
Bahra's mono W:
+ 3 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Council's Judgment
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Retribution of the Meek
- 4 Stoneforge Mystic
- 1 Batterskull
- 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte
My Imperial:
+ 1 Containment Priest
+ 1 Faerie Macabre
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Path to Exile
- 3 Magus of the Moon
- 2 Stoneforge Mystic
Play or draw doesn't matter.
I think you have to have a Karakas/Swords/Judgment or t2 SotL, Revoker, Thalia or RiP to even try to battle the deck. This means you won't usually have time to play t2 Mystic. Because of that I like more Mirran Crusaders as grinders as it's a better option after t2. Of course having a Vial in play does reflect here, but still I like the Crusaders more. It also gets past Griselbrand for the win if the opponent is already at 4 points of life or less. After all I don't know if this is really the right way to sideboard as I haven't played the mono white version for months, but I kinda see the game the same way as Bonde does.
So I'd play all the disruption that is available because I think the game's over if the opponent gets to animate with us having no immediate answer to it. So for me the main thing is to either have an answer to the creatures they animate or graveyard hate, but it's also important to disrupt their game otherwise so we'd have a chance to remove the creature they could animate. Though it's fun how Karakas can win the game on it's own.
With the Imperial version I think it's a clear choice that Magus' come out. Reanimator usually searches for basics early and has Petals so the Moon effect doesn't really disrupt them. And also, Karakas doesn't like. I left one Mystic in as a Recruiter target if you for some reason want to get a faster clock. It's easier to avoid a Massacre with this build as you have an option to Waste your own Plateau after you don't need it anymore, but it's not always the right line of play.
I think there was also a discussion about Canonists. I don't think it disrupts the opponent in any meaningful way.
Yeah I think you might be approaching the Miracles match-up from a wrong angle, or maybe just had bad luck. I feel like our g1 vs Miracles is extremely, extremely favorable, which in turn makes the matchup favorable regardless of how you board. Countertop is weak vs Mono-W, but it can still spike g1s. But vs. 3 Cavern + human tribal, countertop is just dead, along with most of the rest of their countermagic, so they just have so many dead cards in their deck g1.
Terminus is less of a threat if you just constantly Recruiter-for-Recruiter until you absolutely need something else. I board very lightly for the match and make sure I keep a decent number of StPs to not die to an early Mentor, then force them to earn a win via their SB cards. You basically play the match as a true control mirror - you have just as much inevitability and even card advantage (with Recruiters) and just need to ensure they don't spike a win with an early Jace/Mentor. I would feel even better with your board, since having Ratchet Bombs also means you're less concerned about them ever finding Entreat. Pia+Kiran + Karakas is eventually our version of Entreat, and doesn't have to come out quickly.
As per Relic, Mangara is good but can't deal with an active Jitte, is pretty slow vs Chalice and doesn't deal with Dread of Night - and those are really the cards I'm most concerned with. I have also won an inordinate number of games vs Dnt/Merfolk with a V1 Vial, t2 Relic your Vial. I am a huge fan of Relic-Warder, only issue is WW on t2 often means burning a Cavern on Cleric.
For the record, I tried Mirror Entity as a one-of mainboard last wednesday, and won against Aggro Loam on the back of it (from Vial) by swinging a Recruiter, a Stoneforge Mystic and a Mother of Runes into my opponent for 15. I think it could also have made a huge difference in the mirror (which I lost due to not seeing a single Recruiter or StP or Mother of Runes in ~30 cards over two games). I think I'll stick with it for a while and see how it goes.
I interviewed Thomas Enevoldsen today for a Magic podcast. We talked about his Magic-playing career, and also discussed his experiences with Death and Taxes.
Although we focused on general Magic and life topics, I couldn't help but ask him a bunch of Death and Taxes questions :) They didn't make the final recording, but I've captured the Q&A here:
https://writtenbyjames.com/2016/07/0...as-enevoldsen/
Thomas was a great guy to talk to, and I hope you'll give the recording a chance (it's in the link above).
Last edited by Plague Sliver; 07-02-2016 at 07:06 AM.
A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"
Thomas,
I apologize if this has already been addressed, but is there a reason you are playing the mono-white version as opposed to Imperial? I have played both and between blood moon, demonic tutor the creature (Recruiter), and superior SB options, I have trouble going back to Mono White. I've been playing the deck for about 4 years now, so I'm just curious as to your thoughts.
Just took down a local monthly with mono-white. 5 rounds into a top 8 with 74 of the 75 I played at GP Columbus. I'll put together a short report a bit later this weekend.
I got some good testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar today.
It was highly relevant against every deck I tried it against, and moved up to crippling in longer games. The number of mistakes my opponents made simply in miscalculating the board state has been pretty high.
Highlights:
-I played four games against 3-color Mentor Miracles (all preboard). The one I had THC out was laughable. His expansion was anemic compared to mine, and I crushed him easily. When he hit me with Terminus, I saved TGT instead of THC and he said it was a mistake (I had another in hand that he did not know about).
-I faced Elves, and the game I got THC was unbelievable: Me first: Aether Vial, him land Llanowar Elf. Me:TGT, him: land Zenith for an Elf - Heritage I think. Me:THC, Mystic for Jitte. He looks at his hand and can't believe what the board state is now. He Hoofed on his turn three, but it did not do much because only two Elves were untapped and I had my first strike wall. I missed my next land drop, but I got Jitte on the turn after and it was over soon after.
Looking pretty solid, boys.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I have also tested her in the Imperial build, tweaking it like this:Originally Posted by Finn
-1 Magus of the Moon (down to 2)
-1 Kor Skyfisher
-1 Pia and Kiran
+3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I'm running 3 to maximize the testing. If it turns out that 3 is too many, I'll tick her down to 2.
Anyway, I also tested her:
-Vs Miracles: She was fantastic. It was the legends build, so shutting down flash blockers was nuts
-Vs Eldrazi: 3 power first strike is fantastic, especially when coupled with OG Thalia. That, and making Reality Smasher come in tapped is insane
-Vs BUG delver: Their mana being even further cut, in addition to daze being made much worse due to the time walk on their lands makes it even worse against us.
Obviously she still needs more testing, but I have the inkling that she is going to become the next staple 3-of
What did you end up cutting to make space for her?
It's on the front page. A place to start.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
Just note that this deck smokes the legendary crack pipe kinda hard. So you are going to have duplicates in hand kinda often. It's what I am testing. Do as you will with the rest.
Hey also, can one of you imperialists give us an up-to-date 75 for me to post on the OP.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
NMKS' GP Prague list looks like a good place to start
I usually post on the mtgsalvation dnt forum. But I figured that I would chime in since new thalia is being posted about.
I was considering a very similar build to this and recently acquired a 4th karakas. Do you think it would make sense to try and swing a brimaz in place of 1 heretic? Do to the increase in the amount of times you will draw multiples of legendary creatures and since you are heavier on threes vial seems like it will go there often and 4 new thalia seems a bit much. I may be wrong in thinking this, but it seems like there could be a lot of points where splitting up your legendary creature suite a bit more could be a better route to take.
Thanks. I posted that. Is that person a poster on this thread, so that I can give credit?
Also, I saw Crackdown there. That seems like a mean card with THC.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Don't forget to test Winter Orb in the board. Hokori would be fetchable with Recruiter, but is too expensive imho.
Finn, the poster goes by nmks.
Hokori almost seems playable, but there are so many better 4 drops. It doesn't even have flying, and it feels like it should.
I tested Imperial with 3 Thalia 2.0 vs UR Delver and Lands pre-board.
Vs UR Delver - Thalia 2.0 was generally too slow to be relevant, which is probably to be expected.
Vs Lands - Thalia 2.0 was a pretty solid way to buy time, Magus was still the follow up card that eventually won the games so I don't know how those games translate for Mono-W - but I was generally happy to see her.
I ran the same list as I did in Columbus (on page 307, post #6129) -1 Serra Avenger main, +1 Flickerwisp. -1 Path to Exile -1 Cataclysm in the board, +1 Gideon, +1 Sword of War and Peace (our last big Legacy event had 4 Death and Taxes players and multiple Maverick). Also, I'm typing this up from memory, having left my sideboard notes in my bag.
Round 1: Jund (2-0, 1-0 Matches)
Game 1 we jockeyed for position for a while before I was able to close things up with a Batterskull. Game 2 wasn't even magic. He mulled to 6 and I kept a Wasteland x3, Vial, Plains, Swords, Thalia hand. He was never in it and I just dispensed dorks through Vial until I draw Port on turn 6 or 7.
SB - In: Gideon, Path, WLL, 2 RiP. Out: 2 Mangaras, 2 Avengers, one Revoker
Round 2: UG Titan 12 Post (2-1, 2-0 Matches)
He's on a somewhat budget build, as I saw Breeding Pools and not a full set of Trops. Game one turn 1 he Needles Wasteland and I failed to shut down his lands adequately enough and he hardcast Emerakul with Karakas in play. Game two and three I am able to stifle his development with Revoker on Map and Judgement away his Needle on Wasteland to go nuts destroying his development while deploying threats via vial and removing Primeval Titans as they're cast.
SB - In: Needle, 2 C Judgement, Out: 2 Avengers, 1 Displacer
Round 3: Reanimator (2-0, 3-0 Matches)
I had Karakas in hand g1 and knew what he was on, he also Mulled to 4. A non-interactive game. Game 2 he mulled again, but I had all the hate.
SB: In: 2 RiPs, Cage, 2 Priests, Needle, Out: 2 SfM, Jitte, SoWaP, 2 Mom
Round 4: Shardless (0-2, 3-1 Matches)
I was paired down against a 2-1 this round, so we had to play. Luck had to run out at some point. I mulligan into oblivion both games and despite Swords on both of his turn 1 Deathrites and Wasteland follow-ups, he was able to grind me out in short order.
SB: In: 2 Gideon, 2 RiP, WLL, Path, Out: 1 StP, 2 Mangaras, 3 other Cards
Round 5: I was still able to ID into the Top 8 as 5th Seed (3-1-1 Matches)
Top 8: Eldrazi (2-1, 4-1-1 Matches)
Game 1 he runs me over with t1 Mimic, t2 Reality Smasher, t2 Smasher and I can't fight against it. Game 2 I am able to fight the early game and his Matter Reshapers don't give him anything good. Flickerwisp closes out the game with a Jitte after removing troublesome Endless Ones. Game 3 he starts blazing fast, but I am able to suffer the initial assault and he starts drawing dead. I board into big guys but don't get the chance to live the dream by putting WLL in off a Reality Smasher removal spell. I continue my streak of winning out over Eldrazi.
SB: In: Path, 2 Gideon, 2 Judgments, Needle, WLL, Out: 4 Moms, 2 Thalia
Top 4: Maverick ((2-0, 5-1-1 Matches)
Honestly, I just drew the absolute nut in both games, and his draws weren't able to keep up. Game 1 was finished by Voltroning up a Batterskull with both Sword and Jitte, and in game 2 I kept a very risky 1 Land + Vial hand that could have fell apart if he had accelleration into Pridemage. He had one, but not the other, and I just drew everything that I needed when I needed it. I close out game two after he Sudden Shocks in response to an equip up having the 4th land necessary to reequip Sword and swing into killing his board. Displacer is an all-star in this match.
SB: In: 2 C Priest, Cage, Needle, Path, Out: 4 Thalia, 1 Mangara
Finals: Omni-Sneak
I was watching their t4 match play out and he managed to win over Lands. I'm so very happy because I would much rather play a game I'm exceptionally favored in than run up against combo lands, which I haven't played as of yet.
Game 1 I manage to get a quick start and Karakas into play naturally on t2, with a second in my hand just in case. He isn't able to do anything and I never tap my Karakas to do anything, living off of vial and a few value lands, swinging for 4 a turn with Factory and Thalia. Game 2 I make a huge punt, and instead of winning the game, let him through for 7 with Griselbrand once, he then cheats in Emerakul and I can't stop the Annihilator. Game 3 is another example of me having it all. T1 Vial, T2 Priest (he Forces), T3 Thalia with Karakas open. He plops blood moon and then Intuitions for 3 Omni at the end of my t3 and shows on his t4 and I put in Flickerwish for his Omniscience, then Vial in Mangara. My turn I kill Omni and just keep swinging for 5 to win with plenty of ways to remove moon when necessary.
SB: In: 2 C Priest, 2 Canonist (he was running the Omni wish cantrip board package), 1 C Judgment, Out: 2 Avenger, 1 SfM, 2 Mom
All in all, I left with a sweet custom playmat showcasing last months winner, the knowledge my beautiful mug will be on next months playmat, and a decent amount of store credit, some of which I used to pick up a swanky Winter Mishra's Factory from the store the event was held in.
Thanks for the report, Zeb. I fear those Omniscience decks. I have not faced the hybrid ones with Sneak attack though. Does anyone have anything to report on that matchup? how does it go?
----------
I got some more testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar.
1. Only particularly good against Elves g1 if you also have Swords to Plowshares. G2/3, you also need another speedbump, but there are a lot more in your deck.
2. This card is just stupid mid-late. Wasteland on a fetchland - that would otherwise save an opponent - is just backbreaking. I can't say enough for how powerful it is to destroy a land that they have not used yet.
3. I am running four proxies. Interestingly, four feels wrong mostly because she costs three, not because of the legend issue. I'm always happy to have it in my opening 7, but two copies has been kinda topheavy for the mana curve. Not sure what to do about that.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Thalia 2.0 is so good! It's another annoying creature for the ultimate AnnoyingCreatures.dec, she'll replace other three drops for sure.
My list will most likely be:
Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
Creatures [27]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mangara of Conrodor/Kor Skyfisher
1 Mirran Crusader
Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard [15]
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wear/Tear
Sudden Demise was removed from sideboard due to the low count of Elves in my meta, but it's a great card.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
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