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Thread: [DTB] Death and Taxes

  1. #9641

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mat View Post
    ...
    I agree with pretty much all of that. I do think there is something to Shalai, a Vial on 4, and Karakas. But I concur that the conditional nature of that setup is discouraging.

    As for Holy Light, it's basically the only choice in its role for mono-white. Declaration in Stone is no substitute since it will not remove TNN, and otherwise provides the opponent card advantage. People with black or red splashes have better options.

    I'm likely returning to a stock list for a bit, with 1 Prelate, 2 Avengers, 2-3 Crusaders, and 0-1 Brimaz. Aggression seems good right now. My main question is which two of CP, LRW, or Prelate #2 to have in the SB.

  2. #9642

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I am still all in on testing Shalai. It was always game ending for me at the SCG Team Open and in earlier events and testing, but I think Bahra and Medea_ are correct about Karakas being a very real problem.

    I would put it like this: In WW, it is the best CMC 4 play because it is so disruptive, however, maybe there isn't any actually good CMC 4 play and 2 Serra Avenger is the right call. In Wr, it does not compare favorably with P+K, which we are happy to have opponents bounce with Karakas for value and which is Human and therefore has more synergy with Cavern of Souls.

  3. #9643
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Prelate: again Kolagans command is the culprit here. This issue makes me really like Shalai. A friend of mine took my deck to the Kegacy side event at the GP over the weekend with my suggestion to run Shalai. He only had one and only got her out in a single game. It was against Grixis Delver and it was kinda win-more. But he said it felt powerful. Anecdotal...
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  4. #9644
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Check the decklist tab of Thraben University (linked in my signature) for some example decklists. I also put up an article today that touches on the idea of the stock decklist right now.
    Thanks will do!
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  5. #9645

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    What is the reason for the recent change from 2x Gideon in the sideboard to 2x Cataclysm? Especially in a more Mentor-heavy Miracles environment.

  6. #9646

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by achaye View Post
    What is the reason for the recent change from 2x Gideon in the sideboard to 2x Cataclysm? Especially in a more Mentor-heavy Miracles environment.
    I don't think Gideon is all that good against Czech Pile or Stoneblade. Its interesting that you bring up Mentor, because Cataclysm seems significantly better against Mentor. Gideon's not going to do much against an army while Cataclysm can stem the bleeding by restricting their mana.

    I was streaming the other day when someone brought up Luminarch Ascension. In the matchups that you traditionally want Gideon, against slower control/midrange decks, it actually seems potentially similar to me. Being a 2 instead of a 4 is huge, and you kind of force them to play more aggressively with Deathrite activations and creatures to turn you off of it. It seems more specifically targeted at Miracles, but that is the most popular control deck right now.

  7. #9647

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Well, I believe Gideon is actually better vs Czech Pile than Cataclysm. Good Czech Pile players often recover quite fast from the latter. They'll keep a Strix, a DRS and a land, and if you don't have the full RiP/equipment/creature package on board, which you won't, their board will be better, even if you get rid of 2 planeswalkers. They usually also will have lands in hand, as they keep them to get better value off their brainstorms. So resolving a Cataclysm can be pretty tricky. Whereas Gideon usually will take over the game by creating overwhelming creature advantage. You could even +1 it, since they don't have access to StP and it clocky them pretty efficiently.

    Yet, Cataclysm is much better versus Miracle and Lands than Gideon. And most definitely versus Mentor versions against Miracle. Or WW DnT versus Lands (since they won't be able to efficiently waste/ghost the manabase).
    Both those decks need a high land-count to operate efficiently,so putting them back on 1 land is quite constraining. And they usually have good answers to Gideon (Council Judgement's/Terminus/StP/Mentor in Miracle and Chasm lock/Maze of Ith/Molten Vortex/Tireless Tracker/Punishing Fire in Lands). I'd be careful though versus lands, not to slam cataclysm with them having access to Loam. This can backfire quite drastically.

    Cataclysm is also a pretty good card in some other matchups like Monored Control/Prison or 12Post Eldrazi. But Gideon is definitely better in aggro Eldrazi matchup.

    So, which of the 2 cards you want to play is quite up to you, and the expected metagame, or the matchups you're least confident in.

    Versus any TNN deck, neither Gideon nor Cataclysm do much, so I'd advocate against siding them in.

  8. #9648

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by achaye View Post
    What is the reason for the recent change from 2x Gideon in the sideboard to 2x Cataclysm? Especially in a more Mentor-heavy Miracles environment.
    From my FAQ on Thraben University:

    "Which is better in the sideboard: Cataclysm or Gideon?
    Both cards are reasonable and have their own strengths. Cataclysm can sweep planeswalkers off the board, deal with specialized decks (e.g. Enchantress), and wreck decks that rely on having many lands (e.g. Miracles, Big Eldrazi). Cataclysm tends to be a bit better when you are behind, but there are some spots where you simply cannot cast it out of fear of losing the game or sacrificing too many permanents.

    Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a more flexible card. It serves as counter hate to -1/-1 effects, produces bodies turn after turn against control decks, and presents an incredibly swift clock when left unchecked. Gideon is a bit worse when you are behind on board, as there is a fear of the token being removed and then it dying to your opponentís creature. When you are ahead or at parity though, he will warp a game around him very quickly."

  9. #9649

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hello everyone! I've been testing GW DNT a bit and I wanted to share some of my experiences and impressions. I hope you enjoy and please let me know if I need to clarify anything!

    GW DNT
    List:
    3 Plains
    3 Savannah
    2 Windswept Heath
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Arid Mesa
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Karakas
    1 Cavern of Souls
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    4 Mother of Runes
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Vryn Wingmare
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte


    3 Path to Exile
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Choke
    1 Renegade Rallier

    This is the current GW list that I have landed on for now. I am moving some cards in and out (some of which I will discuss) and thereís a lot of testing left to do, but I have had some great results with this build in the current meta and I wanted to share!

    Choices:
    Iíll skip a lot of choices and focus on more of the interesting includes, to better explain why I think this deck has at least some game over traditional DNT.

    Shalai: Thereís not much more to say about Shalai in this build thatís different from other builds. Iíve yet to find a situation where the activated ability is relevant, and I donít think playing green with the ability in mind has any bearing whatsoever on the choice. Overall, however, Iíve had a decent amount of success with it and I am relatively happy with including Shalai for now.

    Gaddock Teeg: A good reason to splash green, but not a great one. Teeg has never felt that bad in any of my games but has never really been stellar either. I think itís still worth an include for increased game against storm, miracles, and some other decks Iím not thinking of as a tutor-able creature (and it survives dread of night!) but I can see sanctum prelate filling a similar role but being more niche.

    Tireless Tracker: Tracker has been THE reason to splash green. I started with one and quickly went up to two because every time I have drawn tracker it has been relevant, impactful, and just plain good. I canít sing praises for this card high enough in practice. Against grindy decks this is exactly whatís needed to draw into more threats and keep up the pressure. Against combo, it is a large body that helps draw lock pieces (as long as you arenít already dead) and is definitely less impactful but was still a card I wasnít unhappy to see. It also provides benefits for fetchlands, grows bigger than opposing creatures, and is just an overall house. If you splash green, splash for at least two of these (fairly diminishing returns after two I believe, but a place for testing). I LOVE THIS CARD.

    Qasali Pridemage: A surprising house. There are a lot of enchantments and artifacts that are good to kill, you can sometimes get a 2-for-1 because itís a good threat, and it has a lot of all-around utility. I didnít board it out too often and brought the sideboard one in quite a bit. This card over-performed for me and is a great answer to a lot of things in Legacy right now.

    Choke: The other reason to splash green, especially in the meta. This card was incredibly potent in every game I brought it in and won me several games that I might not have been able to win otherwise. Itís an extremely potent sideboard card and is great in the current meta.

    Renegade Rallier: A sideboard card for the grind. Itís been great when I bring it in against non-StP removal heavy decks, but otherwise is fairly mediocre. Worth a sideboard slot but not for the maindeck, in my opinion. Might be worth testing but I donít think I will bother with it.

    Sylvan Library: A notable missing from the list. I am currently going without because I was almost never happy to see the one sideboard copy and tireless tracker already helps with card advantage and is also a threat. It felt pretty bad, even when I did want it. Best against miracles (and probably Czech pile, didnít test that enough) but our matchup there is already greatly improved by tracker and choke. It greatly under-performed for me, but a card to keep in mind for sideboard decisions.

    Voice of Resurgence: Another card I had for a bit that severely underperformed. I thought it would help prevent some blowouts in combat and provide a good tool against removal but even when it felt alright it didnít perform that well and didnít improve the matchups it was for from what I can tell. Might be worth another look later on, but for now I am off it.

    Yisan, the Wanderer Bard: I donít have high hopes for this card, and Iíd rather just play tracker. If other people have success with it I might take another look but for now I am off it.

    Overall impression:

    The deck has performed above my expectations. I was on RW for a bit, hedging to a traditional W build when RW didnít perform overall. The traditional build has seemed pretty good, but a lot of players are starting to pack sideboard hate for DNT specifically on top of the general sweepers and other hate they have for Delver and some of the other creature decks around. Tracker and Choke greatly punished these decks and provide more card advantage and extra hate that gives us more tools to attack them with. I had some concern with the mana-base as other splash builds have as well, but the decks that punish us for this mana base are also greatly hurt by it by the cards we gain in splashing green from my experience.

    Miracles is our most-improved matchup. Tracker and Choke shine here, along with our usual grind game-plan. So for Iíve faced the mentor build, back to basics build, and a more traditional build (never saw what their win-con was but there was a lot of permission). Gaddock Teeg and Qasali Pridemage were also relevant depending on their build and the games felt relatively easy. Could just be luck but I think that it looks a little better on paper as well. Other decks felt pretty great and, in most matchups, the green splash either gave me a new tool or, at the very least, didnít hinder my usual plan against the deck. I havenít tested enough against Grixis Delver or Czech Pile, but Delver has felt pretty good (green doesnít generally hurt us here) and pile has felt a bit better. Red Prison has also seemed like an improved matchup as pridemage can get us through ensnaring bridge more reliably and Teeg is nearly game over for them depending on the build. Iíve felt pretty good piloting the deck and itís been fun. Time will tell if it is a viable build, but I believe it has some legs, especially in the current meta.

    TL;DR:

    I think green is currently worth the splash, but it needs a lot more testing.

    Props to the people who experimented with this before, Iíve heard ramblings and got a list online although I canít find it now. If thereís any questions on choices, matchups, or on my impressions of the deck Iíll be happy to talk about it!

  10. #9650

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Thanks everyone, that actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't think Cataclysm would be all that great against the Mentor builds because leaving a single Mentor and a land while continuing to Ponder/Brainstorm off of that one land is really bad news for us, but I can see why it's certainly better than a Gideon still. I think I'm going to try a 1/1 split between Cataclysm and Gideon to hedge against the different decks that they're better at (Cataclysm vs Lands, Mono-red Prison, Eldrazi, Miracles, and Gideon vs Czech Pile, DnT mirror, Maverick, etc).

    Luminarch Ascension is interesting, but I fear that with the amount of Abrupt Decay out there (plus lots of Miracles run Disenchant and/or Wear//Tear on the side), the 4-turn minimum setup is too much of a task to undertake. It also makes for a particularly bad top-deck unless you're at minimum at parity with your opponent (again, due to the minimum 4-turn setup).

  11. #9651
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda1217 View Post
    Hello everyone! I've been testing GW DNT a bit and I wanted to share some of my experiences and impressions. [...]
    Tinkering with G myself a bit, I wanted to know if you've considered Scavenging Ooze yet - and if so, why you chose not to run it/include it in your list of card choice explanations? :)

  12. #9652

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Tinkering with G myself a bit, I wanted to know if you've considered Scavenging Ooze yet - and if so, why you chose not to run it/include it in your list of card choice explanations? :)
    There's not really enough green in the deck to support scavenging ooze, nor does it play well with StP and the fact we don't generally kill creatures. As far as stopping graveyard combo it's not very potent and holding up the mana slows down our game plan of killing them before they combo off. A deck like Maverick is much better suited to take advantage of ooze as it's slower and is great at getting and using green mana. Adding more green mana to help take advantage of it would expose even more of our mana base and it's not clear if splashing is worth it yet. It's a good question though, I hope that clears up my reasoning for not including it!

  13. #9653

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Tinkering with G myself a bit, I wanted to know if you've considered Scavenging Ooze yet - and if so, why you chose not to run it/include it in your list of card choice explanations? :)
    I feel like a lot of that would depend on the number of green sources in the deck - however, for what you are trying to accomplish I imagine RIP is just generally better.

  14. #9654
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Ooze would be a very potent mainboard answer for Deathrite Shaman and even Snapcaster Mage (you only need G open for that), dodges -1/-1 hate, and is easy to cast, tutor, and vial in. That's why I'm advocating for it. In addition to that, with what the format looks like now, there's going to be plenty of bodies at least in D&T's graveyard if you're in any kind of interactive game.

  15. #9655
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    What I've been doing is including more 3/3 creatures with relevant abilities. Serra Avenger, Stalking Leonin, Eldrazi Displacer, one or two Shalai, and I'm considering testing a couple Benalish Marshal. Yes, they still 'die to Bolt' but it stems the bleeding from Shock effects like KCommand and Forked Bolt to just run slightly bigger dudes. It goes a long way in combat math also, allowing 1-1 trades with the likes of Mongoose and Leovold.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of testing an equipment-less build with 2-3 Benalish Marshal and 2-3 Honor of the Pure. A 5/5 Mirran Crusader is a fearsome beast, even without damage triggers. Of course Jitte would have to stay... but Stoneforge->Batterskull is too slow to accomplish most of the time. It's also a nice hedge against -X/-X sweepers, weakening Golgari Charm & Company and forcing them to pay more life for Deluge, wiping more of their board at the same time.

    Or a 5/5 or 6/6 Avenger... giggling at those cute li'l Goyfs from her perch in the sky as she beats their face in.

  16. #9656
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Oof. Went 1-2-1 at our local last night, losing to W/B Stax (Humility, Abyss, Crucible, other goodies), Merfolk (piloted by my girlfriend, both losses were to multiple True Names), drawing against Czech Pile (I had him dead on board in turns, but he brainstormed into Marsh Casualties and Dread of Night to draw), and beating UW StoneBlade (Vial meant I never had to cast a spell, and could port his mana freely).

    It didn't feel like the deck was underpowered, just a few bad draws and wacky situations. Fun night.
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    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
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  17. #9657

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Is anyone else playing against a lot of big mana decks lately? I am seeing a lot of Metalworker/Big Eldrazi decks. I am actually wondering about going back to a 3rd Phyrexian Revoker.

  18. #9658
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    Is anyone else playing against a lot of big mana decks lately? I am seeing a lot of Metalworker/Big Eldrazi decks. I am actually wondering about going back to a 3rd Phyrexian Revoker.
    Besides the usual 4C & Grixis Delver... I see a lot of maverick & Red Prison.

    Edit: I haven't missed the 3rd Revoker much

  19. #9659

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Turbo Depths and Red Prison are the two things I've been seeing significantly more online.

  20. #9660
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Isn't walking ballista a good reason to play more revokers if we see more mono-red prison? (for depths, it's useless as it cannot target lands)
    It's a very good card against us no? (However, i've no idea on wether the matchup is good or bad).
    Death and taxes!!

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