[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Barook]

There are a couple of ways to fight it.

Spirit is the most direct (and fragile) means of stopping it. Some players are already packing two of them.

Jotun Grunt is a lot more durable and can be quite disruptive if he hits early, though DRS can make his cumulative upkeep a tall order at times.

Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus is another proposed means of disrupting Treasure Cruise.

Finally, if you want to get weird with it, Stonecloaker and Samurai of the Pale Curtain are technically options.

What about Dryad Militant?

[Barbed Blightning]

What about Dryad Militant?

Probably suffers from the same problem as Grunt: timing. We want it early, but there's Vial, Mom and StP to consider. Against the UR deck it sound good though.

[Kayradis]

I'm a bit rusty with the deck, but Top 4 a GPT for GP NJ last weekend with the list.
Just sharing my take

Lands // 23
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
3 x Karakas
2 x Cavern ofSouls
2 x HorizonCanopy
8 x Plains

Creatures // 26
4 x Thalia,Guardian of Thraben
4 x Mother ofRunes
4 x StoneforgeMystic
2 x Serra Avenger
2 x Spirit of theLabyrinth
2 x AvenMindcensor
3 x Flickerwisp
1 x Brimaz, Kingof Oreskos
2 x MirranCrusader
2 x PhyrexianRevoker

Non-Creature Spells // 11
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fireand Ice
1 x Umezawa’sJitte
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords toPlowshares

Sideboard // 15
1 x Aegis of theGods
2 x EnlightenedTutor
2 x Rest in Peace
1 x Cataclysm
1 xManriki-Gusari
2 x Runed Halo
2 x EtherswornCanonist
1 x Spirit of theLabyrinth
1 x Sunlance
1 x Meekstone
1 x Oblivion Ring


It ain't the standard list. But I like it. Also Top 2 the Win-An-Uncut-Foil-Sheet at GP Montreal with it (splitted since the TO wouldn't give the sheet to a X-0-1 record, just an X-0)

I might play something in that line in NJ.
Not fully decided yet

[cursecatcher]

Dryad Militant is definitely an interesting suggestion. I wonder if its better than Spirit of the Labyrinth though, for concerns of timing (if you don't get it in play in the first couple of turns. Spirit can come into play t3 via Vial and still stop the Cruise in time, since it seems like t4 is typically going to be when the Delver player is looking to fire it off. It also hurts Brainstorm, Ponder, and Probe too, of course (against which Dryad does nothing).

At this point I am up to 2 Spirits in my maindeck with another in the sideboard. I cut Mindcensor to make room. That card is most valuable against Elves, and Spirit is quite good there too.

[Barook]

I'm still not a fan of Spirit, at least in the MD, since the magical "Respond to Brainstorm by vialing in Spirit" has happened to me only once so far whenever I played SotL. And it sucks in the red zone as soon as any creatures are involved.

On a different note:
I really wonder how good Land Tax really is because it keeps destroying people. Either they underestimate it so much that they don't realize giving me 6+ Plains while significantly thinning out my deck of dead draws + ensuring me a perfect curve while drawing pure gas is a terrible idea or they just have to play lands to not get screwed over.

The high variance in power level (utterly insane on the draw, decent/okay/meh on the play, potentially dead in certain match-ups or late-game) is the only thing that keeps me right now to add a third copy. I do encourage testing of the card because hot damn, that card can be sweet.

[Kayradis]

IRT Land Tax, how many do you run? What slot did you swap for it?
I might give it a spin....
Now I have to find 2 Judge Land Tax.....
FML

[Barook]

I run two since it seems like a safe number until further testing since additional copies are kinda dead. I cut an Avenger and a Crusader for Land Taxes. My current list looks like this:

11 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Land Tax
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

I've faced only control decks so far, so I can't say in which match-ups against Tempo, Midrange and Combo it's going to be dead. At the very least, it's a brutal anti-control card that could go into our sideboard if it turns out to maindeckable.

My impression from testing Land Tax so far is that it's a very complex card with lots of nuances, like the Flickerwisp shenanigans mentioned above. I think it's going to take alot of time and playtesting to determine it's true value.

[Kayradis]

I might give it a spin in the next few days.
Im almost positive I'll play it in NJ. Im fairly confident in the Control matchup, but it could be a good SB card

[cursecatcher]

Barook, I haven't gotten many, if any, Vial blowouts with Spirit either. But it does neuter 8-16 cards in these Delver decks as long as it stays in play. I just don't know how on earth we keep up with these new builds of Delver if we are letting them Ancestral once or twice in the midgame. Obviously we still have a decent matchup here, but I once considered Delver decks 60-70% matchups. Now it feels waaay more coinflippy.

[Barbed Blightning]

Barook, I haven't gotten many, if any, Vial blowouts with Spirit either. But it does neuter 8-16 cards in these Delver decks as long as it stays in play. I just don't know how on earth we keep up with these new builds of Delver if we are letting them Ancestral once or twice in the midgame. Obviously we still have a decent matchup here, but I once considered Delver decks 60-70% matchups. Now it feels waaay more coinflippy.

Is it really? If you're nullifying everything UR Delver is doing with say an equipped creature (SoFI on Avenger preferably) who cares if they just draw into more dead cards?

Thalia still works. Mom still works. Batterskull/SFM still works. RIP out of the board still works. Let's not get paranoid and lose our cool just because WotC predictably gives Blue players a handy every other set.

[bruizar]

Time seems right or jotun grunt

[bruizar]

Time seems right for jotun grunt

[Kayradis]

And what slot would you dedicate to Grunt?

[cursecatcher]

Barbed Lightning, having played 30-40 games so far against various delver cruise decks, the matchup has certainly gotten worse across the board. BUG still feels like a fine matchup because RIP is such a beating out of the board, but against the red flavors of delver I now feel pretty vulnerable. They are playing 6-7 maindeck burn spells, so the plan of leaning on Mom or Thalia gets ruined most of the time. Also, forked bolt is seeing a lot of play, which can still disrupt us through an active Mom.

I am trying to figure out my list for the GP, and am currently playing 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck, removing the Mindcensors. And I am going to be trying 2 Kor Firewalker in the sideboard to help against UR Delver (and Burn), both of which I expect to be very popular at that tournament.

Losing mindcensor kind of stinks, especially because Elves seems very good at the moment, but Spirit is pretty good in that matchup as well.

After more testing this week I will probably post a decklist for scrutiny (seeing if Kor Firewalker is worth it).

[Barbed Blightning]

Barbed Lightning, having played 30-40 games so far against various delver cruise decks, the matchup has certainly gotten worse across the board. BUG still feels like a fine matchup because RIP is such a beating out of the board, but against the red flavors of delver I now feel pretty vulnerable. They are playing 6-7 maindeck burn spells, so the plan of leaning on Mom or Thalia gets ruined most of the time. Also, forked bolt is seeing a lot of play, which can still disrupt us through an active Mom.

I am trying to figure out my list for the GP, and am currently playing 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck, removing the Mindcensors. And I am going to be trying 2 Kor Firewalker in the sideboard to help against UR Delver (and Burn), both of which I expect to be very popular at that tournament.

Losing mindcensor kind of stinks, especially because Elves seems very good at the moment, but Spirit is pretty good in that matchup as well.

After more testing this week I will probably post a decklist for scrutiny (seeing if Kor Firewalker is worth it).

My problem with Spirit is how easily it dies to said Forked Bolt or burn spells. If she were a 2/2 maybe... but as yet another X/1 I am having a hard time accepting her.

Firewalker is cool tech, however. The fact that you cannot fetch it with Tutor sucks, so maybe Warmth could be better, but being able to hold an equip is good too.

Maybe we could go big with Sphere of Law? Slow, but turns off a lot of the UR deck.

[Warden]

Call me crazy, and I'm coming from a Maverick background, but Armageddon does some serious work against the Cruise-Delver lists.
I lost to UR in a top 4 last weekend. I didn't realize how few land-lands they run. They are loaded with fetches, so after 3 or 4 basics, they're out (assuming they run that many). PTE was golden but I really should have brought in 'Geddon. They have trouble steamrolling through you if you're bringing in some PTE's/removal. The deck then durdles off a handful of lands. Had I blown out their manabase, I'd walk all over them. Geddon also works well against Miracles....making me think I'm onto something. Just a tidbit I'd share with everyone in the DnT. I think Avenger and Flicker hold the fort against the insect but to bury these delver decks with TC, just take out their mana. They run next to no countermagic (force and daze) -- especially post-board.

[Barbed Blightning]

Call me crazy, and I'm coming from a Maverick background, but Armageddon does some serious work against the Cruise-Delver lists.
I lost to UR in a top 4 last weekend. I didn't realize how few land-lands they run. They are loaded with fetches, so after 3 or 4 basics, they're out (assuming they run that many). PTE was golden but I really should have brought in 'Geddon. They have trouble steamrolling through you if you're bringing in some PTE's/removal. The deck then durdles off a handful of lands. Had I blown out their manabase, I'd walk all over them. Geddon also works well against Miracles....making me think I'm onto something. Just a tidbit I'd share with everyone in the DnT. I think Avenger and Flicker hold the fort against the insect but to bury these delver decks with TC, just take out their mana. They run next to no countermagic (force and daze) -- especially post-board.

Yeah but you could also be filling their yard up for Cruise. That's the horrid thing about Cruise--all they need is one Blue.

Rest in Peace is the most solid answer I think. Beyond that, Spirit of the Labyrinth. Some of us are testing a very light green splash for Gaddock Teeg also.

[cursecatcher]

@Barbed Lightning: My concern with cards like Warmth that are not threats themselves is that this gives UR delver more time to find Sulfuric Vortex, which blanks this type of effect entirely. At least Firewalker is a basically unkillable threat to hold a Jitte or Sword in this scenario? Also it contains Young Pyromancer quite well.

Sphere of Law is very enticing, but I think that boarding in 4 drops against Delver might be a tad ambitious.

On a general sideboarding note, I've started to board in 1 Council's Judgment against almost most Delver decks as an out to potential sideboard True Name Nemeses, Sulfuric Vortex, or other random scary things. Its possible that I am playing too scared, but it has performed decently well when I've drawn it. Having another piece of spot removal to get rid of an Insectile Aberration is typically a welcome sight.

[Barbed Blightning]

@Barbed Lightning: My concern with cards like Warmth that are not threats themselves is that this gives UR delver more time to find Sulfuric Vortex, which blanks this type of effect entirely. At least Firewalker is a basically unkillable threat to hold a Jitte or Sword in this scenario? Also it contains Young Pyromancer quite well.

Sphere of Law is very enticing, but I think that boarding in 4 drops against Delver might be a tad ambitious.

On a general sideboarding note, I've started to board in 1 Council's Judgment against almost most Delver decks as an out to potential sideboard True Name Nemeses, Sulfuric Vortex, or other random scary things. Its possible that I am playing too scared, but it has performed decently well when I've drawn it. Having another piece of spot removal to get rid of an Insectile Aberration is typically a welcome sight.

I usually bring in both Judgments against Delver, over my copies of Mangara. Yes, it is expensive etc. but the Delver decks are morphing into weird midrangey things nowadays--like you said, Vortex, TNN, Lilly etc. Judgment provides a solid answer.

If Firewalker proves good (which he he probably shall if this UR Delver nonsense keeps picking up), please let me know. I have a few copies but I haven't been able to get out enough lately to try them.

[from Cairo]

Is Kor Firewalker better than Fiendslayer Paladin ?

It would seem, the opponent has to be casting more than 2 spells a turn to make +1 life per spell > Lifelink. Firststrike and immunity to Abrupt Decay certainly hold some value, and probably make the card boardable in more matches, idk if it makes it worth +1 mana versus the important matches in question - presumably Burn and Huang's UR deck.