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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #6681

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Warden View Post
    *typing on iPhone so forgive me if there are errors

    I guess I am very optimistic on Prelate. If DNT is ruining mana bases by default, a team of thalia 1.0 + prelate more or less disables your opponent from playing spells. My gut is saying run 4x in the 75 because Prelate is your one sided chalice of the void with legs. For 3 mana you get to arbitrarily pick what cc spells cannot be played by your opponent. IMO, this deck loses when spells are played. DNT can hold its own on the ground. The real problem has always been opposing players casting cantrips, comboing out with spells, sweeping your board, and stealing momentum with a well timed OP planeswalker. Suddenly we have the option to disable that. The other plus is that we're discussing Prelate in legacy, where X will likely be = 1 or 2 most of the time. There are perks of making X somewhere between 3 and 5. Fringe cases to call X at 6 or 7. You mentioned not liking her in the mirror or against maverick because she's not that strong but in my experience, the only way Maverick beats DNT is through having a better board state usually via active moms or with spells (swords, path, zealous, toxic). The real mirror has a lot of intricacies but I wouldn't discount the impact you have on making STP and CJ suddenly worthless for your opponent.
    I'm not saying that there are no situations where Prelate would allow you to maneuver strategically in the mirror or against Maverick (I actually think its pretty decent against eldrazi post board at 2, since they have Jitte, Ratchet bomb, Warping Wail, and sometimes Spatial Distortion), but those cases are few and far between, and they often risk backfiring (you draw a plow immediately after). As it stands, I am still cutting Prelate against any deck playing Thalia. As you said, those matchups usually revolve around board states, and prelate does little once you're already behind on the board, whereas tutor will get you whatever creature card can get you out of a hairy situation (prelate included), if your deck has one. Prelate is certainly not comparable in value and flexibility to recruiter in any of those matchups.

    In summary, my reservations about playing multiple prelates in the main is that we'd almost certainly need to cut down on tutors (or tutor targets) for it, since we cannot afford cutting down of 2-drops any further. The idea is that tutor is awesome against virtually every deck, whereas prelate is only awesome against about 75% of them, and can be tutored up anyway. It is quite possible that I am grossly underestimating the number of games a turn 3 prelate through cavern of souls will outright lock away, but I feel like, in most of those scenarios, we can afford to wait for 1 turn to recruit it up anyway. Alternatively, I guess Thalia 2.0 could be cut altogether in favor of a second maindeck Prelate. It is probably going to be stronger against most of the field, but I am reluctant to give up some percentage points against creature based decks, since I feel like our new tools have improved our spell-based MUs significantly enough already...

  2. #6682
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    If people can find a way to make mid-range creature-heavy decks good enough to beat D+T in one or two colors, that would make Prelates bad in those matchups. I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good, and Elves should continue to have a pretty good D+T matchup, even with the beating that THC gives them. Prelates are going to suck against Merfolk and be meh against Elves.

    I would also be on the lookout for bastardizations, and of course the mirror. Prelate will suck against them as well. In a meta-dependent deck, I find Prelate to be a particularly meta-dependent card. I'm starting with two and a third in the board until I have a clear sense of what the meta is going to look like, even after I have a handle on how good she is.

    I am on the fence between keeping a single Mangara and replacing him with a 2-drop. I feel strongly about the benefits of both. Mangara singularly owns the game in a wide variety of conditions. Opponents freak out when he becomes active. But I am unconvinced that the deck will remain fast enough with all the new 3-drops. What I really want is for one of the acceleration methods to be good enough to keep the single Mangara.
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  3. #6683

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I think between the new Thalia, prelate, wasteland and port, the opportunity to tutor for the singleton Mangara in situations where the mana denial plan is strong/already online is too good to lose out on; not to mention post-board with Magus of the moon to stop their non-basics and snipe the basics.

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  4. #6684

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I think between the new Thalia, prelate, wasteland and port, the opportunity to tutor for the singleton Mangara in situations where the mana denial plan is strong/already online is too good to lose out on; not to mention post-board with Magus of the moon to stop their non-basics and snipe the basics.

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
    I play a single Magus of the Moon in the slot where many people play a tutorable Mangara. I feel the pay off is so big, it's worth the times it'll stick in your hand (like batterskull). I feel the moment it hit's the board, it's immediately high impact.

  5. #6685
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    If people can find a way to make mid-range creature-heavy decks good enough to beat D+T in one or two colors, that would make Prelates bad in those matchups. I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good, and Elves should continue to have a pretty good D+T matchup, even with the beating that THC gives them. Prelates are going to suck against Merfolk and be meh against Elves.

    I would also be on the lookout for bastardizations, and of course the mirror. Prelate will suck against them as well. In a meta-dependent deck, I find Prelate to be a particularly meta-dependent card. I'm starting with two and a third in the board until I have a clear sense of what the meta is going to look like, even after I have a handle on how good she is.
    I agree with this analysis. Finn, how do you feel about the Eldrazi Taxes build competing in this future arena, or is that included under "bastardizations"? Do you foresee D&T being absorbed into such a deck in the future? Also, would you feel favored or unfavored in that matchup as the Death & Taxes player?

  6. #6686

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good
    ???

  7. #6687

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by hill_giant View Post
    ???
    I'm certainly FAR from being an expert. But, I would guess that running a deck that doesn't use too many non-creature spells that will almost always have creatures larger than ours seems decent.

  8. #6688

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Hencules View Post
    I play a single Magus of the Moon in the slot where many people play a tutorable Mangara. I feel the pay off is so big, it's worth the times it'll stick in your hand (like batterskull). I feel the moment it hit's the board, it's immediately high impact.
    I would not play in the main. I would not play it the first game...

    Mangara is tutorable artifact/enchantment hate in game 1, and with the mirror going up in percentages, it's more important to be able to have an answer to batterskull/jitte than it is to have a better game 1 vs. bug and lands.

  9. #6689
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Recruiter just means you're playing with 7-8 copies of SfM, and Fish can't really beat equipment. I have played vs Merfolk a bunch with Imperial (where Magus, like Prelate, is a bad Grey Ogre g1) and it is a fantastic matchup. There is exactly one way they ever win, which is TNN into TNN + Lords. Anything but that exact start generally won't do it.

    Prelates should be decent against Elves. Not insane, but they shut off Natural Order without shutting off Vials.

  10. #6690
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    In lists that aren't using the new Recruiter and Prelate, how are you feeling about THC? I have a big quarterly tournament on September 10th and won't be able to buy any of the Conspiracy singles before then. I did try out THC in a modern Abzan build last night and she was great on turn 2 and to a lesser extent turn 3 but pretty underwhelming otherwise, but that deck doesn't have the mana denial and tricks that D&T does, obviously. I'm thinking of running her in my flex spots:

    4 Mother of Runes
    4 SFM
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Revoker
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Serra Avenger
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

    I like the 2-2 split of Crusader and Avenger because my meta has a lot of Shardless BUG and BUG Lands and both of these have been great there. I also want to cut down to 3 Revoker but don't know what to replace it with. I previously had 1 each of Mangara and Eldrazi Displacer in the flex spots.

    Top 8 at the last quarterly were apparently 2 Shardless, 3 Infect, Grixis Delver, ANT, and Show & Tell.

  11. #6691

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by RobNC View Post
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 SFM
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Revoker
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Serra Avenger
    2 Thalia, Hertic Cathar
    Thalia is very good. This is the exact 26 creatures i played before Conspiracy, and I reccomend it highly and would not change a card. I am currently trying a variety of recruiter builds because its a super powerful option and I want to see how it works out, but this 26 is consistent, powerful, and brawls better than any version with recruiter. With tight play and a good sideboard this has game in any open meta.

    If you feel like Revoker will be subpar shaving one isnt unreasonable, all the usual flex spot choices are good options.

  12. #6692
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I agree with this analysis. Finn, how do you feel about the Eldrazi Taxes build competing in this future arena, or is that included under "bastardizations"? Do you foresee D&T being absorbed into such a deck in the future? Also, would you feel favored or unfavored in that matchup as the Death & Taxes player?
    I have been saying versions of this since THC was spoiled. When you get too many good cards that all seem like they should fit in the same deck but don't, you will inevitably get variations. This is precisely the same phenomenon that has been going on with the blue shell for years in various forms. (There were three Landstill decks all at the same time for about a year c. 2007, there are still several decks using Tendrils of Agony, a few BUG versions, etc) It is possible that a more Eldrazi-centric version that trades in our control elements for beef will be the better deck down the road, but that is certainly not the case at the moment. D+T is going to be at the height of its power in the coming months. But the sheer number of cards that are good competing for space simply must spawn variations that should all be powerful. There may even be room for two or even several distinct versions. I am certain, however that classic D+T will not be subsumed into another deck.
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  13. #6693

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    LANDS:

    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Cavern of Souls
    3 Karakas
    9 Plains

    CREATURES:

    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    2 Mirran Crusader
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate

    SPELLS:

    4 AEther Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    SB: 2 Containment Priest
    SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
    SB: 1 Fiendslayer Paladin
    SB: 2 Council's Judgment
    SB: 2 Rest in Peace
    SB: 1 Banisher Priest
    SB: 1 Stonecloaker
    SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle

  14. #6694
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I'm thinking about returning to mono-W for a while, with a list close to this one, with the following modifications (to the main board):

    -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Batterskull, +1 Stonecloaker, +2 Recruiter of the Guard, +1 Mangara of Corondor

    Also, I think you'll want to up Cavern of Souls count. I'll be running three, I guess.

  15. #6695

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    played a local 20man tournament on sunday with this list. Had a 2-2-1 run with a draw vs Maverick. Win vs Reanimator, Loss vs Maverick, Loss vs Elves and a win against a lands brew deck.
    Played a draft on saturday and pulled a Sanctum Prelate, so deceided to play it and try it out

    9 Plains
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Flagstones of Trokair
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Serra Avenger
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice


    SB:
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Council's Judgment
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Path to Exile
    1 Wilt-leaf Liege


    I feel like in the maverick aka SFM mirror the one with the first jitte on the table wins the game. Is it viable if in my meta there are multiple SFM decks to run a manriki-Gusari in the SB?
    What else you advice to run, cut, board in, in the Maverick MU?

  16. #6696

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    It's going to be near impossible to find room to play, but eldrazi displacer straight wins the maverick matchup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farone View Post
    played a local 20man tournament on sunday with this list. Had a 2-2-1 run with a draw vs Maverick. Win vs Reanimator, Loss vs Maverick, Loss vs Elves and a win against a lands brew deck.
    Played a draft on saturday and pulled a Sanctum Prelate, so deceided to play it and try it out

    9 Plains
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Flagstones of Trokair
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Serra Avenger
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice


    SB:
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Council's Judgment
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Path to Exile
    1 Wilt-leaf Liege


    I feel like in the maverick aka SFM mirror the one with the first jitte on the table wins the game. Is it viable if in my meta there are multiple SFM decks to run a manriki-Gusari in the SB?
    What else you advice to run, cut, board in, in the Maverick MU?

  17. #6697
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @ Farone, if enemy equipment is a problem for sure throw a Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard.
    Belcher, RUG Delver, Death & Taxes, Colorless Eldrazi, Goblins

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  18. #6698
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Farone, if you cast Revoker naming Jitte, they can not shoot your Revoker with the Jitte "in response". Just saying.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
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  19. #6699

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Farone, if you cast Revoker naming Jitte, they can not shoot your Revoker with the Jitte "in response". Just saying.
    No they can't. It's an "As..." not a "When..." ability. As soon as Revoker has resolved and you name the card they have no ability to respond to it. They can only respond to the spell itself.

    Edit: Bleh, my bad. Skimed through Finns post and did not register the not in there. So yeah, I agree with Finn....
    Last edited by Sisyphos; 08-31-2016 at 03:12 AM.

  20. #6700
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    they can not
    Quote Originally Posted by Sisyphos View Post
    No they can't
    Are you ... agreeing?
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

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