I'm not saying that there are no situations where Prelate would allow you to maneuver strategically in the mirror or against Maverick (I actually think its pretty decent against eldrazi post board at 2, since they have Jitte, Ratchet bomb, Warping Wail, and sometimes Spatial Distortion), but those cases are few and far between, and they often risk backfiring (you draw a plow immediately after). As it stands, I am still cutting Prelate against any deck playing Thalia. As you said, those matchups usually revolve around board states, and prelate does little once you're already behind on the board, whereas tutor will get you whatever creature card can get you out of a hairy situation (prelate included), if your deck has one. Prelate is certainly not comparable in value and flexibility to recruiter in any of those matchups.
In summary, my reservations about playing multiple prelates in the main is that we'd almost certainly need to cut down on tutors (or tutor targets) for it, since we cannot afford cutting down of 2-drops any further. The idea is that tutor is awesome against virtually every deck, whereas prelate is only awesome against about 75% of them, and can be tutored up anyway. It is quite possible that I am grossly underestimating the number of games a turn 3 prelate through cavern of souls will outright lock away, but I feel like, in most of those scenarios, we can afford to wait for 1 turn to recruit it up anyway. Alternatively, I guess Thalia 2.0 could be cut altogether in favor of a second maindeck Prelate. It is probably going to be stronger against most of the field, but I am reluctant to give up some percentage points against creature based decks, since I feel like our new tools have improved our spell-based MUs significantly enough already...
If people can find a way to make mid-range creature-heavy decks good enough to beat D+T in one or two colors, that would make Prelates bad in those matchups. I think that in a heavy D+T meta, Merfolk starts to look good, and Elves should continue to have a pretty good D+T matchup, even with the beating that THC gives them. Prelates are going to suck against Merfolk and be meh against Elves.
I would also be on the lookout for bastardizations, and of course the mirror. Prelate will suck against them as well. In a meta-dependent deck, I find Prelate to be a particularly meta-dependent card. I'm starting with two and a third in the board until I have a clear sense of what the meta is going to look like, even after I have a handle on how good she is.
I am on the fence between keeping a single Mangara and replacing him with a 2-drop. I feel strongly about the benefits of both. Mangara singularly owns the game in a wide variety of conditions. Opponents freak out when he becomes active. But I am unconvinced that the deck will remain fast enough with all the new 3-drops. What I really want is for one of the acceleration methods to be good enough to keep the single Mangara.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I think between the new Thalia, prelate, wasteland and port, the opportunity to tutor for the singleton Mangara in situations where the mana denial plan is strong/already online is too good to lose out on; not to mention post-board with Magus of the moon to stop their non-basics and snipe the basics.
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I agree with this analysis. Finn, how do you feel about the Eldrazi Taxes build competing in this future arena, or is that included under "bastardizations"? Do you foresee D&T being absorbed into such a deck in the future? Also, would you feel favored or unfavored in that matchup as the Death & Taxes player?
I would not play in the main. I would not play it the first game...
Mangara is tutorable artifact/enchantment hate in game 1, and with the mirror going up in percentages, it's more important to be able to have an answer to batterskull/jitte than it is to have a better game 1 vs. bug and lands.
Recruiter just means you're playing with 7-8 copies of SfM, and Fish can't really beat equipment. I have played vs Merfolk a bunch with Imperial (where Magus, like Prelate, is a bad Grey Ogre g1) and it is a fantastic matchup. There is exactly one way they ever win, which is TNN into TNN + Lords. Anything but that exact start generally won't do it.
Prelates should be decent against Elves. Not insane, but they shut off Natural Order without shutting off Vials.
In lists that aren't using the new Recruiter and Prelate, how are you feeling about THC? I have a big quarterly tournament on September 10th and won't be able to buy any of the Conspiracy singles before then. I did try out THC in a modern Abzan build last night and she was great on turn 2 and to a lesser extent turn 3 but pretty underwhelming otherwise, but that deck doesn't have the mana denial and tricks that D&T does, obviously. I'm thinking of running her in my flex spots:
4 Mother of Runes
4 SFM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I like the 2-2 split of Crusader and Avenger because my meta has a lot of Shardless BUG and BUG Lands and both of these have been great there. I also want to cut down to 3 Revoker but don't know what to replace it with. I previously had 1 each of Mangara and Eldrazi Displacer in the flex spots.
Top 8 at the last quarterly were apparently 2 Shardless, 3 Infect, Grixis Delver, ANT, and Show & Tell.
Thalia is very good. This is the exact 26 creatures i played before Conspiracy, and I reccomend it highly and would not change a card. I am currently trying a variety of recruiter builds because its a super powerful option and I want to see how it works out, but this 26 is consistent, powerful, and brawls better than any version with recruiter. With tight play and a good sideboard this has game in any open meta.
If you feel like Revoker will be subpar shaving one isnt unreasonable, all the usual flex spot choices are good options.
I have been saying versions of this since THC was spoiled. When you get too many good cards that all seem like they should fit in the same deck but don't, you will inevitably get variations. This is precisely the same phenomenon that has been going on with the blue shell for years in various forms. (There were three Landstill decks all at the same time for about a year c. 2007, there are still several decks using Tendrils of Agony, a few BUG versions, etc) It is possible that a more Eldrazi-centric version that trades in our control elements for beef will be the better deck down the road, but that is certainly not the case at the moment. D+T is going to be at the height of its power in the coming months. But the sheer number of cards that are good competing for space simply must spawn variations that should all be powerful. There may even be room for two or even several distinct versions. I am certain, however that classic D+T will not be subsumed into another deck.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
LANDS:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
9 Plains
CREATURES:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
SPELLS:
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Fiendslayer Paladin
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Banisher Priest
SB: 1 Stonecloaker
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
I'm thinking about returning to mono-W for a while, with a list close to this one, with the following modifications (to the main board):
-1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 Batterskull, +1 Stonecloaker, +2 Recruiter of the Guard, +1 Mangara of Corondor
Also, I think you'll want to up Cavern of Souls count. I'll be running three, I guess.
played a local 20man tournament on sunday with this list. Had a 2-2-1 run with a draw vs Maverick. Win vs Reanimator, Loss vs Maverick, Loss vs Elves and a win against a lands brew deck.
Played a draft on saturday and pulled a Sanctum Prelate, so deceided to play it and try it out
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-leaf Liege
I feel like in the maverick aka SFM mirror the one with the first jitte on the table wins the game. Is it viable if in my meta there are multiple SFM decks to run a manriki-Gusari in the SB?
What else you advice to run, cut, board in, in the Maverick MU?
@ Farone, if enemy equipment is a problem for sure throw a Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard.
Belcher, RUG Delver, Death & Taxes, Colorless Eldrazi, Goblins
Originally Posted by Caboose
Farone, if you cast Revoker naming Jitte, they can not shoot your Revoker with the Jitte "in response". Just saying.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
No they can't. It's an "As..." not a "When..." ability. As soon as Revoker has resolved and you name the card they have no ability to respond to it. They can only respond to the spell itself.
Edit: Bleh, my bad. Skimed through Finns post and did not register the not in there. So yeah, I agree with Finn....
Last edited by Sisyphos; 08-31-2016 at 03:12 AM.
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