[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Never mind, didn't read well enough...

[WashableWater1]

The way they work around removal is by casting cavern Harpy first. When the return trigger goes on the stack they cast the strix. If you try to remove strix they then pay the life to return harpy and then recast in response to get a new return trigger on the stack to save the strix. If they screw it up and cast strix first, then you have to answer it when they recast harpy and before it resolves.

You plow the Dream Stalker with its trigger on the stack. Most lists are only on 1 Dream Stalker so that can disrupt the combo.

[mykatdied]

You plow the Dream Stalker with its trigger on the stack. Most lists are only on 1 Dream Stalker so that can disrupt the combo.

The lists running 1 dream stalker are made as value decks with shardless agent as well and can still likely grind out value to bury us in card advantage.

Most lists that still focus on the combo use either 2 stalker/artic merfolk depending on which recruiter they are using.

[contra]

With my current list I'm running 61 cards main deck for the additional land. I dropped Thalia, Heretic Cathar because I'd much rather be playing Magus of the Moon. Mirran Crusader, Banisher Priest, and Leonin Relic-Warder are my main deck tutor targets of choice, with the later being an all star.

I'm really liking the 2 Simian Spirit Guides in the side to give me some speed against the decks I'd previously been having trouble against i.e. combo.

24 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau

26 Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Banisher Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

11 Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Simian Spirit Guide

I've currently been having more luck against Eldrazi with the following sideboard plan:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mother of Runes
-2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I'd appreciate any feedback on my list and would be happy to answer any questions.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm interested in going down to 2x Revoker, but it seems like a bad idea every time I look at what it's useful against, which is quite a bit, albeit not without a couple dead matchups. How has that been for you?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mykatdied]

Personally I am down to 2 Revoker. Often enough it is a reactive card to name something that we need to shut down which makes it a great recruiter target. Running less means you're less likely to find them when you really don't need/want them.

[Isre Morn]

I run 2 Revoker atm, too. Feels fine so far. If I need more shut down effects I bring in 2 Needles postboard.

[contra]

I'm interested in going down to 2x Revoker, but it seems like a bad idea every time I look at what it's useful against, which is quite a bit, albeit not without a couple dead matchups. How has that been for you?

I was also hesitant to drop revokers for the same reasons - they shut down many legacy staples and lower the curve of a deck plagued with 3 drops. Honestly though, I don't miss them too much as a lot of the time they were just a 2/1 colorless body. Deathrite is a common target - a nice target indeed, but your opponent only paid 1, and is more than willing to trade revoker with deathrite, making revokers body useless.

I really believe the matchup analysis for D&T needs to be completely redone as matchups which were previously labeled poor (lands for example) are now good for D&T, and vice versa (I've noticed deliver decks especially grixis have more game against us). While revoker does a ton of work when naming something high impact like a plainswalker or especially LED, I feel like more often than not it's just a 2/1 in the matchups I've had the most trouble with.

Also, splashing for red, I've had a lot of people suggest Sudden Demise, but I've found the sorcery-speed quite lack-luster. Ratchet bomb seems to fit the same role (but tutorable) for tokens and 1cmc creatures. Does anyone have any experience with the card?

[iatee]

Sudden Demise is very, very good against Elves, okay vs Pyromancer decks, and not particularly relevant vs anyone else. If my local meta were filled with Elves, I would run as many copies as I could, since it's one of the few cards that can reliably beat them.

Ratchet Bomb is much worse vs Elves (slow in a matchup where we already lose because we're too slow, hit by all the cards they're siding in - Abrupt Decay, Null Rod, etc.) but has far wider application - eats Chalices, tokens, Dread of Nights, Delver/DRS boards...

[contra]

Sudden Demise is very, very good against Elves, okay vs Pyromancer decks, and not particularly relevant vs anyone else. If my local meta were filled with Elves, I would run as many copies as I could, since it's one of the few cards that can reliably beat them.

Ratchet Bomb is much worse vs Elves (slow in a matchup where we already lose because we're too slow, hit by all the cards they're siding in - Abrupt Decay, Null Rod, etc.) but has far wider application - eats Chalices, tokens, Dread of Nights, Delver/DRS boards...

I'd think it'd be decent against True-Name Nemesis also...

[iatee]

*Eventually*, though having a solution for TNN that takes 4 turns isn't really ideal.

They should really make a Ratchet Bomb bear, that would be fun. Magus of the Ratchet.

[infiniteJ]

Little report.

Played this list to a top4 yesterday in our local quarterly:

4 Mother
4 SFM
4 Thalia GoT
3 Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia HC
1 Recruiter
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Vial
4 STP
Jitte, BS, SoFI
4 wasteland
4 port
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones
9 Plains

SB
3 Path to exile
1 Councils judgement
2 Armageddon
1 Gideon
2 Rest in peace
1 containment priest
3 Canonist
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 pithing needle

Rounds and notes:
R1 2-0 Mirror- Opponent inexperienced with deck. 3 toughness on Avenger was huge after throwing away 10 dudes to his Jitte.
R2 2-0 Merfolk- Opponent inexperienced as well. G1 he keeps a mana light hand and I revoker his vial and port him out. G2 He had jitte but drew TNN too late and never got going
R3 2-0 Miracles w/ 2 entreat- G1 was a long affair where he had to terminus his angels away. Recruiter chain with flickerwisp was great. Vialed in a mom EOT and then equip with SoFI to get there. G2 T1 mom eats a STP. T2 I misplay and play SFM which allows him to t3 snap plow it. I should have played the canonist, which I play on t3 with a mom. The canonist picks up a jitte on t4 and goes the distance. He didn't have a top and shows me a hand of snapcaster.
R4 2-1 Jund G1 Thalia HC combined with mana denial means he doesn't get to play. G2 He hymns me, hits my wasteland and port, then kills everything I play with a Lilliana Last Hope. G3 I draw rest in peace and it + a bunch of paths shut him down.
R5 1-1-1 Goblins Long drawn out G1 he has the nuts with lackey into mana denial on the play. I have no answers. G2 I grind him down with batterskull. G3 both went real long. Don't remember much except he earwig squaded my equipment and had lots of removal/artifact destruction for postboard games. Like 2 grips, grudge, tin street, md goblin ally guy.
R6 1-2 Maverick (Megadeus on here) I almost steal G1 with two flickerwisps and an avenger in the air after everything looking hopeless for about the first ten turns. Thalia HC really dampens his knight plan. G2 I get a batterskull going after he pridemages my jitte if I recall. I think we were both playing pretty loose and having a good time. G3 I have mom mom sfm batterskull if I recall and he has the three removal spells on teh key turn to take them all out.
R7 2-0 Dark Depths Infinite path to exile/STP/Flickerwisp/Karakas. Leonin Relic warder and flickerwisp allow me to turn off needle on wasteland.

Quarters
2-1 Goblins from swiss. G1 I have the nuts with like vial into port into jitte/thalia or something. G2 I keep a loose hand w/ 1 land on the draw knowing that he is playing controlling. He has the answer to my vial and has a port so I just end up discarding. G3 Grindy affair. I flash in containment priest on T3 and ambush a mana making 1/1 goblin, then almost punt on t4 by playing Thalia HC off the top instead of Avenger like I planned to opening myself up to pyrokineses I knew he had. Fortunately, I then play the avenger and take it home using ports and removal to keep him off enough goblins to gempalm it. Win the game with him holding a bunch of artifact removal.
0-2 Eldrazi My deck (and his) poop on me. G1 mull to 5 keep thalia1/thalia2 3 lands. Draw more thalia. He has a karakas. G2 he has ratchet bomb into a quick jitte. I have no answer and no removal.

All my opponents were awesome. Deck felt great.

Card choice thoughts:
Avenger- 3 toughness awesome vs massacre, jitte, punishing fire, tarfire, warping wail, etc. Flying very relevant.
Thalia HC- Always had impact, again maybe because of the matchups. Allowed wasteland to target fetches and their wastelands so I can protect port and allowed me to attack for lethal quite a bit. First strike great. Wouldn't argue it's a definite.
Recruiter- Was always happy to draw it, but it's definitely slow. The body did nothing for me. Could see a meta game where 0 is correct and I'd be hard pressed to be excited by a hand with 2 of them. So IMO 1-2 is probably right. I didn't ever want a lot of silver bullets.
Flickerwisp- Would play 8 if I could.
Prelate- Dead card for me all day. Maybe if I was paired against delver or lands, it'd be great. But it feels like a bad meddling mage to me.
Armageddon-Never drew it.
Relic Warder- Maybe should be MD if there continue to be a lot of fair decks in my meta.
3x Path- Was happy with. Could see 2 + blessed alliance since there are a lot of burn.
Pithing needle, council's judgement, etc- whatever.

The 3 drop spot is a conundrum for me. On the one hand, we have all these choices. On the other hand, they all have such wide range of applications and their power level can change dramatically based on what's in the meta. I didn't miss mangara even though I love the card. I could see running 3 recruiter, 1 banisher priest, 1 prelate or something. I never really understood crusader. The card never beat me when I played shardless bug and bug delver for years. That matchup is defined by deluge/lilly and abrupt decaying equipment. Maybe mindcensor has a place? More flyers would be great. For now, I'll stick with Thalia HC- it seems better than wingmare.

Also, I played an unpowered RW version in the vintage FNM and went 2-2 the night before using 4 md spirit guides. The only non-legacy card was strip mine. Monkey is sweet-went T1 kataki vs shops. Maybe we should test it in Legacy if the meta ever gets faster.

[Stevestamopz]

Also, I played an unpowered RW version in the vintage FNM and went 2-2 the night before using 4 md spirit guides. The only non-legacy card was strip mine. Monkey is sweet-went T1 kataki vs shops. Maybe we should test it in Legacy if the meta ever gets faster.

Gratz on your finish.

Sorry for de-railing from Legucci, but we had a Team Eternal event on Saturday, and I ended up being the Vintage player because I have watched about 2 matches of Vintage (which is 2 matches more than anyone else on our team has played). I ended up just brewing a R/W Taxes list which L10 and Chemicalburns worked on, ending up with this:


1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Containment Priest
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Vryn Wingmare
3 Stony Silence
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

We ended up winning the whole event, and I ended up with a record of 4-1-1 with the deck.
Round 1: Shops: 2-1
Round 2: Eldrazi-shops: 2-1
Round 3: Dredge: 2-1
Round 4: ID
T4: Oath: 2-0
Finals: Gush Mentor: 1-2.

Deck was sick.

[Plague Sliver]

Going down to 2 Revokers really is a metagame call. I usually feel anxious going below 4 maindeck, because there are just so many things that it's good against. Maybe I'm just playing in a creature-heavy meta right now where every game 1 has the potential to be Gristlebrand or Jitte. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

My sweet spot right now is 3, but it can be absolutely useless versus decks like Grixis Delver.

Deck was sick.

Agreed! Vintage looks sick overall

[Finn]

I have two Revokers, but I have been seriously missing the 3rd, and possibly 4th. Not willing to part with anything I have though, so it is more nights in the land of imperfection for me. I have a larger issue to question right now though...Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?


One more thing: Been seeing Belcher floating around again with the current rise in D+T. Thinking about revisiting Pithing Needles, but probably not more ridiculous measures because I think it is just a blip.

[Curby]

Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?

Naw son, D&T be the illest deck.

Revisiting Needles? What does your current Needle-less sideboard look like, and are you still on 3-4 maindeck THC?

[ParkerLewis]

I have two Revokers, but I have been seriously missing the 3rd, and possibly 4th. Not willing to part with anything I have though, so it is more nights in the land of imperfection for me. I have a larger issue to question right now though...Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?


One more thing: Been seeing Belcher floating around again with the current rise in D+T. Thinking about revisiting Pithing Needles, but probably not more ridiculous measures because I think it is just a blip.

If there really seems there is nothing you can part with, and you do miss the 3rd Revoker, that's typically the situation where going 61 cards would be justifiable. Unless you're already at 61, obviously :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This thread is frequented by the 61 card club, my friend. I'm pretty sure that more of us play 61 than 60 already. Plus, Kirbysdl is a frequenter of our thread, so there's that.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Plague Sliver]

Perhaps I am getting old, but do you want your deck to be "sick"?

Well...Vintage isn't exactly healthy, amirite?

[iatee]

Do you guys happen to think that everyone else in magic is wrong about not playing 61 cards and legacy DnT players happened to be the ones who discovered this secret tech? That for some reason legacy DnT just happened to be the perfect deck for this bold strategy?

The most obvious reason why this is wrong *especially* for DnT is that we are essentially an Aether Vial combo deck. Your win % with t1 Vial is massively higher than your win % without it. You are shaving a .5% chance of having it in your opening hand by doing this, which means 1/200 games go from being 65% to win to 45% to win, or however you want to weigh the EW % of t1 Vial hands. If we had an Aether Vial in our opening hand every game, we'd be the best deck in legacy. Doing something to ensure that you have it *less* often is crazy. If you could submit a 59 card deck, I would in an instant.

It is suboptimal in a way that will be barely noticeable, you can do a lot of small suboptimal things to a good deck and still win most of the time. But it is very obviously suboptimal.