[Deck] Death and Taxes

[AsmodeusDM]

I've been having GREAT success with my current Chrome Mox (mainboard) list.. so I can definitely see the value in Chrome Mox in the board against certain kinds of match-ups.

My current list:
3 Moms
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
3 Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Thalia, HC
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Skull
4 StP
4 Vial
2 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Port
9 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Cavern

(yes it's 61 cards.. for that elusive 23.5 land-base)

Even in games vs. miracles (where you think Chrome mox would be at it's worse) being able to power out a T1 Thalia or a T2 Prelate can be huge. Against lands I had a THC out on T2 and it just completely derailed their whole gameplan.

Also I love being able to play around daze to protect things like my vial or mom on T1. Land-drop, play chrome mox (they can't daze), then cast Vial (can't daze).

Being able to get t1 SFM for Jitte against historically bad MUs like Elves is big game; as you can deploy it t2 and connect with it t3 (as opposed to t4 as usual). One game (magic xmasland I know) post board I was able to go (on the play). T1: Land+Mox for SFM and Jitte. T2: land, Mirran Crusader. T3: land, play and equip jitte to Crusader->Swing -> opponent concedes.


I haven't missed the 4th SFM; but I do sometimes miss the 4th mom. I've been running a 3/3 split on recruiter and prelate because I want to continue to gets reps and games with the card to really see how they perform. I feel like 3x recruiter makes 1x or 2x silver-bullet creatures in my board just more potent and effective... and with mox in some % of games... being able to T2 recruiter for the silver bullet and casting it on T3 reliably feels pretty good to me.

Prelate is just so good in so many match-ups... many of my opponents say it's a must kill and it's the card they fear the most. Not playing 3 (or even 2+1) just seems.. wrong?

in the last SCG legacy 5k I was in a few weeks ago I played against a UR delver player who had the following cards in his main:
- 1x Roast
- 2x Sudden Shock
- 1x Fire/Ice

While the roast was also a concession to TKS and RSmasher; he said the 4 cards were in the deck specifically because "D&T forced me to do this because of Sanctum Prelate".

[ChemicalBurns]

So previously I've been running this:

Creatures: (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

Interestingly, the main I ended up on (I didn't do this on purpose, I swear!) ended up exactly the same as the mtgtop8 averaged deck list posted a page back.

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pithing Needle

Side is pretty straightforward too.

Anyway, today I ended going well in a small local tournament, splitting the finals. The largest change I made was:

Main:
-1 Crusader
-1 Flickerwisp
+2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara of Corondor
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Mirran Crusader

Primarily to test THC. Overall, I found her fine. But certainly replaceable. The most tangible utility she ended up having was being an uncounterable beatstick that I could defend with Karakas to give Miracles headaches. I'm not really that unimpressed with her effect (it does certainly shine at times, but D&T truly does not capitalise on her well compared to other shells), but the thing I hate most about her is how slot-inefficient she is. Just like Avenger, she needs to be played as at least a two-of, even though she is tutorable (unlike Avenger, which is why a two-of is necessary), because as we know, she's pretty awful (or at least below-par) when not curved into naturally. Furthermore, she cuts into the three-drop slot, of which the only truly replaceable one is Crusader (cutting the fourth Flickerwisp was more an experiment to remind myself, yeah, this certainly should be a four-of, as it was brilliant all day). If we're not cutting a Wisp, then we need to cut into Avenger or Prelate. Prelate I'm sure everyone has realised is quite quite busted, and is perfect to curve into or tutor (which is the epitome of a great card in our deck, of course). Avenger has been brilliant against the fair decks of the world (especially the mirror - I have trumped almost every mirror match I've played recently due to Avenger playing offence/defence simultaneously) and has notably kept the curve tight which I think should be one of our main concerns (also why I'm not a fan of cutting a Mom - compared to the rest of Legacy we're actually sorely lacking things to do on t1 if we don't draw t1 Vial or Mom). I don't think going to one Avenger is really all too feasible.

Jailer I never drew today, but I'll keep testing it over the Mangara as I get chances to play. In the end they're essentially filling the same grindy slow tutorable creature role, I suppose. I think it'll likely be fine.

tl;dr - my conclusions come to THC being playable, certainly, but incredibly slot-inefficient in our already crammed decklist - warping our deck with more acceleration etc. is the only way to push her favourably, and you're essentially going down the E&T path then. Avenger is still amazing at bridging the deck's now awkward-ish curve, and I'd continue to highly recommend her.

[RobNC]

ChemicalBurns, do you have a tourney report?

[TGCRequiem]

The obvious change to that list is removing thalia, heretic cathar for a card that is worth tutoring for like mirran crusader, banisher priest, mangara or palace jailer.

I think by now is pretty much clear that thalia heretic cathar is a card you either play in multiples or don't play at all.

Okay, sounds good to me. I play Elves myself primarily and I've heard this version of Thalia is supposed to be pretty solid against us and so I wanted to play against it a bit, but if the general consensus is that the new cards have kind of pushed it out I can live with that. Mirran Crusader CAN be good as well if you can get it down early enough and it probably is a lot better against some of the Shardless and Delvers of the world. Thanks everyone.

[Finn]

He is not saying that TGCReqiuem. He is saying you don't play it with the expectation of fetching it with Recruiter. And he is correct.

[iatee]

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

The deck is secretly Blue Jund (more so than Shardless) with endless Bolts and Decays. Unlike stock Grixis Delver, it doesn't just lose g1 to any equipment or a Prelate on 1 and it has an actual late game with TNN/Snapcasters. I think deck can afford to play so many 'beat fair deck' cards like Decay/TNN because unfair decks have been pushed out of the format. If that's where long-term trends are going, it's kinda bad for DnT. Anyway, the match-up isn't unloseable, I find myself losing in 3 a lot, they still have a very greedy manabase that sometimes just folds on them. But having maindeck answers to TNN might become necessary if more people switch to that variant and similar "I choose you" decks.

Playing Serra Avengers helps, though again with their infinite removal they don't necessarily stick. An online Mystic Crusader would be close to being our own TNN in the matchup, but getting 7 cards in the card without fetches is hard.

Bomby late game flyers like Resto could also be good in the Jund style games, though a bit hard to resolve vs 4 Daze/4 Wasteland.

Splashing black for Orzhov Pontiff has always been an option, I know Bahra's tried a Kambal/Dark Confidant build with mixed results in some streams. Problem with Pontiff is it seems like such a dead card when it's not good.

[RobNC]

I'm upping my Council's Judgment count to 2 in the sideboard for next weekend's tournament, less for True Name Nemesis and more for Leovold who makes it very hard for our deck to do anything. Every single BUG deck in my meta is running at least 1 or 2, one even has 3 along with Snapcasters. Depending on how things keep going I may even need to add one to the mainboard.

My graveyard hate has also evolved; instead of 2 Rest in Peace I'm now running only 1 along with 2 Faerie Macabre, who is both tutorable with Recruiter but also instant speed and essentially uncounterable. It's our best shot against a turn 1 reanimation, helps with Punishing Fire, and in the case of Snapcaster decks can help with the recurring removal.

[Medea_]

Leovold is absolutely a problem card for our deck. I've found that it is grinding most of my actions (Port, Waste, equipment activations) to a halt. Sure, you can bounce it with Karakas, but that's often not a winning proposition.

[Curby]

I faced, and lost to, a variant of that deck with White instead of Red (STP instead of Bolt) in Denver. I'm out of practice but it seemed tricky for sure. I think I ended up using a sideboarded Path or Judgment to remove Leovold at one point.

[RobNC]

I'd rather get rid of it for good than Karakas, which just gives them the opportunity to cast it again and draw when targeted the next turn. I Plow it on sight if possible; the one card at the time is much better than the abundance of card draw they are threatening by leaving it on the board. Having multiple Paths in the sideboard also helps by increasing our chances of having removal as a quick answer, but Council's Judgment is a cleaner answer if you can cast it.

[redtwister]

RE: 4C Delver
I am playing this deck these days (in order to become a better player, not for a loss of love for DnT) and I have to say, it is extremely resilient and difficult for DnT to deal with. I am on the fence about Leovold, Emissary of Trest, not because it isn't fantastic, but because it really stresses the mana base.

[AsmodeusDM]

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

Just wanted to add/echo in the problems lately with 4C delver moving towards TNN and main deck decays.

Some of these decks have even been trimming on FoW; certainly a bad sign for us!


Also wanted to add that after playing with 3 main deck THCs for a while now; and with chrom mox to power her out on T2.. I've found her to be neutral. She's just okay and as often as her Legend status is a bonus (for Karakas) it's a downside (multiple copies and opponent Karakas). I'm not sure what to replace her with; but I feel like disruptive elements are best. Perhaps go back to a maindeck Aven Mindcensor? Or a banisher priest as many have done.


I kinda miss my old Imperial list with 1x Pia and Kiran Naalar... now there was a card that felt like it could turn a game around. Multiple bodies (with flying), tutorable, karakas-able, human, and even gave the deck burn/reach!

[iatee]

Yeah Pia/Kiran is one way to beat Jund-y decks...just out Jund them.

[mykatdied]

I made the mistake recently of mis-identifying that 4c delver deck for grixis delver. Game 1 I basically saw Grixis Delver and game 2 those TNN plus Jitte were brutal and he had what he needed for the disruption that I was able to find.

[Bahra]

Have any of you played 24 lands yet? It's probably not a popular opinion but I think with the build I am running, 24 lands is definitely correct.




I'm running a lot of caverns and I had problems with land screw and missing white mana in a lot of my games, I added 1 plains and since then I've been super happy with the deck.

[Pilhas]

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

[Bahra]

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

1 Prelate is the perfect number. It's tutorable which means I have it when I want it through the Recruiter of the Guard, and most match ups I don't want just a 2/2. It's decent vs. Delver/ANT/Lands, OK against miracles but that's all, if it had first strike it would be a different story but in the end it's just a 2/2. Too fragile and really low board impact.

[Poron]

if you can defend it via MoR, it's backbreaking against both Miracle and Grixis

You just suck for StP and Vial.
The second is untouchable but if you want to go deep on the Prelate route just play Declaration in Stone..
I would give it a try

[NeckBird]

I have a 1/1 split of Prelate main/side in my 75. Multiples of Prelate is great in a few matchups like Miracles, but there are matchups where I just never want to see her like Eldrazi or Elves. If Recruiter weren't in the deck, you'd be crazy not to play multiples, but because she shines best in slower matchups anyway, you have time to find her via a natural draw or tutoring for her with Recruiter. I'd rather the deck have a beatdown angle to it so we can pressure the opponent rather than just die to a card with a CMC we didn't name.

[iatee]

Bahra, 'decent' vs Lands might be selling that card *just* a little short. It wins on the spot vs Lands or Grixis Delver. Having played against Miracles with it a ton by now, it's easily the card they're the most scared to see. I could see a 1/1 split with one in the board, but running fewer than 2 in my 75 seems crazy. 24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve. I've done it recently with Ghost Quarter builds. Ghost Quarter comes close to being a white source with enough Flagstones...Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

Yesterday night I ran a WB list similar to the one you were streaming with - Kambals, Bobs, etc. and went 3-1, beating UR Delver, Burn and UB Tezz, losing to a UR TNN/Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden deck that is pretty much built to crush DnT. Kambal is very busted and that card probably deserves to be played somewhere.