On Lavamancer, I like that it is tutorable and a human. You have some fetches, so the yard will be a little more filled, but I think I like sharpshooter for a little earlier or something of the like for creatures. I was searching for something aggro to replace the legend, and I found things like Boros Reckoner and Skynight Legionnaire, which could be slightly useful in certain contexts. At the same time, I looked into Goblin Rabblemaster and love to token idea, but then I just figured Brimaz would be easier and better for the aggro and defense with a big butt. I like the idea of a light splash of red for Magus, but it I always wanted to splash for a very aggressive creature. havent found it yet.. Maybe goyf one day in green..
Yeah, the tactic wouldn't be a staple of the deck. Like Lavamancer activations, it would be used to do finishing. Just as you mention a situation like:Originally Posted by mykatdied
The whole idea of Anax and Cymede was a tutorable Serra Avenger-sized creature that can be used two ways. It being Legendary also makes Karakas more live (and makes it more resilient to removal).
...
The difficulty with trying to use an off-color card in an aggressive way is that it's hard to enable. Especially a card like Goblin Sharpshooter--because it's 3 mana. (Goblin Sharpshooter--hell, even Fireslinger and Cunning Sparkmage--are all great cards that have the problem of being relatively low-impact because it's only 1 damage).
My thought with the red splash was that the white creatures that are the backbone of the deck (Thalia GoT, Flickerwisp, and Stoneforge-into-equipment), are all capable of being aggressive already. It's the ability to break parity in a grind (cf. the Donelson interview, and Medea_'s thoughts earlier in thread) that we'd want cards like Lavamancer and A&C.
Maybe someday the green splash will take off. I love Knight of the Reliquary.
Wouldn't it also be easier to just give the creature pro-color with mom so you bypass blockers entirely?
With the TNN example, I would just provide pro-blue and be done with things.
@Red: Aside from SB cards, I've always thought you'd want Magis of the Moon/Blood Moon and Eidolon (which is RR but a nasty effect). Eidolon walks that line of control/oppressive and aggro because you will likely be using vial. Opponents will be taking damage 90% of the time.
Lavamancer isn't a terrible idea either, but fueling the GY is a thing. Lavamancer also only pulls from your yard. The "better" lavamancer is DRS, who could do a lot of things for the deck overall. But then we're looking at Green and Taxes or Deadguy type lists. DRS conditionally bolts, gains life, and provides some much needed ramp.
I can see lavamancer as sideboard tech against creature decks where thalia is possible to come out in some numbers in favor of more spells. That way you're likely to fuel lavamancer a bit better and it helps take control over the board.
Grim Lavamancer is a powerful card, in particular vs a lot of the things DnT is soft to. It's not inconceivable that there is a strong Thalia/Grim Lavamancer list out there to be discovered. But that list isn't going to play Port, and it probably is base red not splash red.
For Grim Lavamancer to be good against fast decks you need the following:
- R on t1 and t2.
- 2 cards in your graveyard on t2. This is harder when you're playing a creature-based deck and not a spell-based deck, so you need a *lot* of fetches.
Anax and Cymede is not a very good card. Heroic is not an ability meant to be played in older formats, it basically reads 'Please two-for-one me.' There aren't many pushed RW creatures in the game at the moment, unfortunately.
These are all valid points for/against Grim Lavamancer. However, Grim Lavamancer and, to an extent, Anax and Cymede, are offshoots of the real design decision of red for Magus of the Moon.
Does having a (tutorable) Blood Moon effect justify a color splash, and can the color provide more value?
Lavamancer was just very convenient to slot in the deck that follows its philosophy (i.e. an atypical finisher); it's problem is that its biggest value is very narrow. Anax and Cymede, admittedly, is a reach--however, its function was to overlap a two-way component of the monowhite lists (i.e. Serra Avenger).
I've looked through other pools and goldfished against a few matchups, and it looks like the red splash is still a little slow--especially if there's only room for a single Magus of the Moon. (When playing red, I've always thought that fewer was better, though: having one on board and then drawing into another felt awful).
Just the way the Meta is currently, it just feels like a Blood Moon lockout is as strong as it's ever been.
Hi all,
I have posted here my thoughts one month ago. Then, I have tested the deck a lot of times with different builds. To tell the truth, I am upset the deck is not as strong as I wished with the three new cards (THC, Recruiter, Sanctum prelate). I first thought these cards could bring about a real revolution for D&T. Well, it's not. I tried many builds, alone, with friends, in local tournaments and I am not pretty sure our new tools have to be played too much.
First of all, I was thinking about playing chrome mow in 2. I was wrong, that was a bad idea. It's just impossible to play chrome mox with aether vial and the deck can't support discard advantage even if we play 4 recruiter and 4 SFM.
Then I played some list with 3/4 recruiter and/or 2/3 sanctum prelate main deck. I also tried Thalia Heretic cathar in 3 main deck or SB. I was disapointed. I got bad results on local tournaments : elves still destroy us, the deck is slower : it's more difficult now against aggro deck like Goblins, Drazi, burn or affi. Indeed the list is more consistant against midrange and card advantage's decks like Shardless. But it's not enough. I had a lot of game with a lot of 1/1 creatures ont the board and do nothing. Plus, the deck is really slower than it was.
I was really sad : I had the feeling that I tried everything but the new death and tax did not bring me good results.
So, two days ago, I stopped. I took some time and asked myself : why D&T is a good deck ? Why did it become a Tiers1/1.5 ? How ? What are these strengths ?
Very basics questions, I know. We all know the answers. Well, it's good to remember.
DEATH AND TAXES. Meaning we lock the opponent and kill him.
To kill, we have flying creatures, and/or equipments. Plus, we have tricky creatures like mother of runes. /// To tax, we have lands and specifics creatures.
It means we have to play both.
So, the core of the deck is : Mum-Serra avenger-Flicker-SFM-3 equipments-Thalia thraben-Wasteland-Rishadan port. 4 Stp of course.
We have :
4 mother of runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flicker
4 SFM
4 Thalia
3 Equipment
4 STP
The news conspiracy creatures are good but we have to keep a good curve. They all cost three. This is a problem. Since a long time, we often play nothing turn one. Cause if we don' have mum or vial in hand, we have not a turn one. In fact, this is terrible. Because this is legacy, because we have to put the pressure before the opponent does. We have to control the board. Have a turn one in not an option with death and tax. We need another drop one and find a room for it. I tried Judge’s familiar and find him pretty huge. He is amazing agains Shardless, miracle, Delver, ANT, Storm, Show and tell, dredge good against burn and good against Elves (Could avoid turn one Green Zenith with dyrad arbor and make us gain a turn to slow the NO and the glimpse). He seems not good against Drazi and mirror match up but he stays a 1/1 flying which is great, especially with the equipments cards. Great card, and perfect with Thalia.
We have all we need to keep the pressure fast and kill the opponent : Mom, Judge, avenger, Flicker, SFM, equipment.
Now, we need to lock. Here are the cards who do that : Both Thalia, Vryn wingmare, Sanctum prelate. Thraben is an auto inculde. Heretic Cathar can’t be played in singleton with recruiter because it’s too slow. With Recruiter, the card is on the board turn 4 or turn 5 with vial. Too late. If we play 3 or 4 it’s too difficult. It makes 4 more 3CC. Moreover, the card is good against deck we already beat. I really like Vryn wingmare for a simple reason : he locks AND he kills (flying man !)
Sanctum prelate is a huge card. I played 3. But we can’t play him and play Vryn. We have to choose. With Thalie/Judge’s familiar plan, I prefer Vryn and sideboard Sanctum prelate against miracle/delver/ANT. Sanctum is not good against creature deck and there are a lot : mirror, Drazi, Elves.
Reruiter of the guard has to be played, just because it’s a card advantage the deck need. I played 3, it’s too much because get 2 in the opening hand is bad. 2 sounds great. I play just one Mangarra with him (I don’t play priest and leonin : just 1 mangarra to gain 1 shot)
Finally, I choose mirran cruisader because of the meta.
It makes
Death and taxes
Land : 23
11 plain
1 canopy horizon
4 wasteland
4 Rishadan
3 Karakas
Creatures : 27
4 mother of runes
2 Judge’s familiar
2/3 Serra Avenger
4 SFM
4 Thalia Thraben
1 / 2 Mirran
3 Flicker
3 Vryn wingmare
1 Mangara
2 Recruiter of the guard
Others : 10
4 Aether vial
4 STP
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
Side Board :
2 Burrenton Forge-tender VS Burn/Delver/Goblins
4 Ethersworn canonist VS Elves/ANT/Storm
1 Mirran cruisader VS Shardless BUG/Jund (Drazi ?)
3 Sanctum prelate VS Mirace/Delver/Burn
1 Unmezzawa Jitte VS Death and taxes/Elves/Drazi
2 Rest in peace VS Reanimator/Jund/Shardless Bug/Dredge
1 Path to exile VS Drazi
1 Oblivion ring VS Miracle/Shadless/Drazi (Jund?)
Curve : 14 CCM1 / 12 CCM 2 / 10 CCM 1 which is great !
. I play just 2 equipment to gain room. I don’t know if I play 2 mirran and 2 avenger or 3 avenger and 1 mirran. I am so sad to play just 3 flicker. Maybe find a room fir the fourth. I’d like to play 2 jitte maindeck, it’s a lot of pressure. I don’t play Sofi, it’s useless, I never stoneforge it, I always stoneforge Jitte or batterskull.
Since we got Recruiter and Prelate I feel like I've gotten very mixed feelings each night I play; some of the newer cards either underperform for me or blow me out of the water with how good they are. This past Wednesday was one of those nights my deck was pretty disappointing.
THC is amazing on turn 3 or 4 but generally sucks after that. I don't feel keeping her as a one-of tutor target is worthwhile, but running 3 or 4 could be reasonable.
Recruiter is okay late game when you have a bit of mana to cast your tutor target, or early game when you have an active vial, but is mediocre at least 50% of the time (especially when you have one or two in your opening hand!). I lost some games on Wednesday night when I recruitered for what I needed (like a Prelate) and was dead before I was able to cast my tutor target next turn. In times like that I almost wish I just ran more of the threats themselves.
Prelate has rarely disappointed, and even then (like in creature matches) it's typically good enough to shut down something like Abrupt Decay for a few turns to protect itself. Figuring out what number to name, especially against fringe decks, is the hardest part. I'm already running two main and I'm considering a third in the sideboard.
Ethersworn Canonist was my most sideboarded-in card on Wednesday and it was always great. I'm considering running one main in addition to the two sideboard. Only 2CMC, survives Golgari Charm and Sulfur Elemental, human for Cavern. Helps in quite a few matchups.
I tried running two Serra Avengers again as well, although I never got to swing with her. I was always happy to see her in my hand, though.
EDIT: Clarified THC comments regarding single copy as target.
Last edited by RobNC; 09-25-2016 at 12:08 PM.
There are two top 8 lists! One with Mangara, which seems alright for the grindy matches, but overall, it looks slow and there is 11 3-drop creatures.. I have cut down to around 10. 3 wisp, 3 recruiter, 1 crusader,, 1 THC, 1 prelate, and 1 banisher priest (this may become crusader #2 or prelate #2, which is in the side)
Soetimes I want another THC game 1, but I have it in the side, so game 2 I bring it in against Jund, Miracles, Elves, and similar things.
I have thought about another canonist in the main, and it while it is a stellar 2-drop, I don't have enough decks in my meta to warrant it.
These two cards can not go in the same deck unless we get some kind of disposable creatures or something. As it stands right now, Grim Lavamancer can not possibly work. Somebody quoted me saying this before. It is still true. He wants it as a late game guy to recruit, why would you have Lavamancer over Pia/Kiran then? Somebody is going to naysay this, I imagine...probably someone whose name rhymes with "Pie Ate Tee". You are all welcome to do what you like, of course. It will only take a few games to see how silly it is to try to fit these creatures together. I hope you do so that we can move past this one.
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I tried Lavamancer in my Imperial build, it didn't stay for long, I liked it when I had it as I could use it 2 maybe 3 times, but A lot of the time I would have preferred something else, Lavamancer is great, but it needs red mana to work, and it's also unlikely to be able to shock more than twice.
Cockatrice: EMFry
Can someone please explain to me where this "Mangara is slow" meme came from? It's the most oft repeated thing I hear about Mangara and DnT. Last I checked, DnT was not blazingly fast nor just an aggro white weenie deck.
Not meaning to single you out Tristin, but I really do not understand this.
Also @Finn - Iatee was one of the first to try out Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he needs convincing about how good the card is.
No Worries. I just find it slow with the aggressive decks of late. I would really like it for Miracles and for the long matches, and I may put it back in soon here. But with Delver, storm, punishing fire decks, and eldrazi, I don't know if it is good enough. Another concern is that it is another 3-drop. I don't personally want to go over 10 in the deck.
The pros of tutoring are that we hopefully not draw it and keep it shuffled in the deck. I suppose if we are tutoring multiple times, then Mangara might be a fine tutor target.
Just chiming in to say that Mangara is actually pretty good against Eldrazi. A bit slow, sure, but very powerful if you get to untap with it, even without Karakas. Blocking one attacking monster and exiling another before damage will usually win the game. As for punishing fire, it doesn't seem to be that prevalent in the meta anymore, and not as much of a nightmare now that we have Prelate.
to the people who run 1 THC in the main deck. i dont think it is a good idea. TCH isnt a card you just want 1-of in the deck. its either an engine of the deck or not played at all. its one of those cards that are much much better if drawn naturally. recruiting it is too late to matter in legacy and as a 1-of you dont get it when you need it. i dont see what you are getting from running one. that doesnt work. generally, the cards you are recruiting the most are reactive cards(revoker, mangara, banisher priest etc.) or cards with huge comeback potential (sfm, flickerwisp, mirran crusader etc.). THC is a pro active card and you want to draw it naturally if you go that route. in my book running just a single copy doesnt make any sense at all. either play 3-4(even though 4 might be cloggy) or none at all.
While I understand your logic, I argued in favor of THC as a tutor target a few pages ago, especially in the miracles matchup. Also, drawing it naturally doesn't happen as rarely as one would assume on paper (as anyone who has played batterskull knows all too well).
While it is true that it is a card that is ideally cast early, I've seen people constantly underestimate its value as a mid-late game topdeck or tutor target. That card is an obvious 3-4 of in stompy DnT/Eldrazi Hybrids and perhaps even G/W decks playing acceleration, but the new lists with Prelate and Recruiter really can't afford to play that many copies. That doesn't mean that she's not worth a spot in your 75.
THC's power is directly related to the turn she comes down. On turn 3, she's usually mildly disruptive outside of a port/vial draw. Since she came out I was pretty suspicious of her, so after about 60 matches with her as a 2 of I started taking a note on every game I drew her, and what her effect on the game was.
In the 25ish games I have notes on, I tutored her up exactly once. I had a double vial port/wasteland draw, and they were stuck on 2 lands, and a slightly disruptive beater was exactly what I needed. In most cases, I would rather tutor for either a stronger beater or stronger disruption. The corner cases where you want a little bit of both have been few far between.
wouldn't you rather tutor Wingmare there? it also flies. Great with any equipment
I spent some time considering Lavamancer, but always ended up coming back to Fireslinger. It's also a human, the damage to you is minor, and it doesn't have any upkeep cost in regards to using its ability.
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