[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Medea_]

@Bahra

That was a great writeup. I guess I should probably help you do a little testing with that decklist. I'm not really convinced that the sideboard is good either. I'll try to give a little thought over the weekend. I'm not necessarily sold on Mindbreak Trap, Surgical #3, Cunning Sparkmage, and Wilt-Leaf Liege. I'd like to see a second Magus in the 75. I think a third Path or a first StP might be better than Cunning Sparkmage.

[colo]

You should also consider Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Flanking is awesome (attacks through True-Name Nemesis), and so is being virtually unkillable under a recent tax reform (read: increase). I like it very much.

[Lord Darkview]

I find a lot of this discussion really interesting and intuitive. I don't necessarily see that StP has become useless (it still handles Delvers, DRS, and Pyromancers fine), but it is inadequate where Griselbrand, Emrakul, and TNN are concerned. OTOH, I don't know any 1-mana answer that is sufficient for all of these.

I definitely can sympathize with the issues relating to SFM and Equipment, though. The entire process requires between 4 and 7 mana, and often can be thwarted by a well-timed Bolt. I'm a little reluctant to go into battle without having the various edges equipment provides at my disposal, though.

I'm not sure that DFD quite makes up for that, though I certainly see a lot of advantages. First Strike improves the more of it you have, a red guy is immune to Dread of Night and similar things, and the ability to occasionally steal your opponent's Bolts, cantrips, and countermagic is nice. This is particularly powerful with Vial and Flickerwisp. It's also swingy though, and sometimes might not do anything, though the potential upside is huge, depending on the opponent. I don't think it's quite as fragile of a trick as has been indicated.

It's still daunting to me personally, especially as a pair of plateaus costs as much as the rest of the mana-base. I suppose I could budget-test with shock-lands. Meanwhile, I'm still testing with a standard list and having fun, though the weaknesses are apparent.

I'm sifting the card database to see if there are any other interesting EtB triggers that don't require a red splash that could fill the DFD role. Absent equipment, I'd like some other pump effect or disruptive effect. There really aren't a lot of great ones. Anafenza, KTS can be a lot of buffs, but often the counters won't land on the guy you want to swing with (buffing Mother of Runes is not the best thing). Alternatively, disruptive effects on creatures are nice but harder to come by in white. There's also the enchantment-route for pumps, which have the perks of countering Dread of Night, being harder to remove, and surviving Cataclysm, but they don't do much on their own.

PS: In personal news, my cardboard lands arrived and two of the Karakas look like high-quality counterfeits. Thankfully, I caught it within a day of their arrival. Everyone should always be on the lookout for counterfeits, even on newer cards.

[ChrisCunningham]

a pair of plateaus costs as much as the rest of the mana-base.

I picked up MP/HP Plateaus for $45 each at the last SCG event that look fine; they are certainly easier to get than Caverns.

[Lord Darkview]

I picked up MP/HP Plateaus for $45 each at the last SCG event that look fine; they are certainly easier to get than Caverns.

I got my two Caverns back in 2015 way before they really spiked up. I guess if I can get a pair of Plateaus for under $100, that's enough to try and run the deck with DFDs. At the least, I may grab some of the latter before they increase in price too much.

I went looking for mono-white cards that might have sufficiently interesting ETB effects to be worth considering, and came up short. There are variations on tap/detain effect, Fiend Hunter type effects, and a number of "kill attacker" type of effects. The latter are interesting, but aren't really an acceptable answer to Emrakul or TNN. Blade Splicer can also be rather interesting, but I don't think the ability to make additional copies with Flickerwisp is sufficiently powerful to make it a contender in Legacy.

Edit: Addendum: Thinking about this further, I'm not sure DFD is really key. Thalia HC and Wingmare do most of the core taxing. SotL helps close down blue decks and Griselbrand. Revoker can also deal with Griselbrand and some combo (while resisting Dread of Night), though it's not as good versus blue decks. DFD is really a gamble that the opponents are playing spells you want, which might pay in grindy matchups (where they have draw and removal we want) but is unlikely to help against combos.

It occurs to me that if the emphasis has transitioned to winning the attrition war, the Flagstones + Dust Bowl engine combines really well with Thalia HC, and could readily yield a commanding edge against some of the more controlling or grindy decks in the format. It folds to Price of Progress, but not any more so than the Wr build does.

All interesting food for thought.

Any thoughts on this equipment-less build?

[deck=DnT mk2]
Creature
4 Mother of Runes

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Phyrexian Revoker

1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Flickerwisp
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Vryn Wingmare

2 Serra Avenger

Land
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Dust Bowl
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Rishadan Port

Artifact
4 Aether Vial

Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Holy Light
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
[/deck]

[Mannaus]

Hello,
I'm not a big-fan of the SFM-less decks, but why not.
Concerning your build:
- I would not play the Flagstones of Trokair/Dust Bowl at all. One of the main strengths of WW build is mana stability. Here, you expose yourself to Wasteland, Blood Moon and Back to Basics way too much. Also, since the overall strategy relies heavily on 3 drops, Flagstones can be quite awkward. Depending on your meta (if there are a lot of Grixis Delver's and Miracles), you could consider playing 2 Cavern of Souls, although it would require straighten the build a little, in order to consider more humans.
- Speaking of humans, I would definitely play Mirran Crusader. If there are a lot of taxing components in the build, it lacks some straight opposition to cheap/efficient removal. like Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. It will also re-balance a little some matchups that lose a lot of percentage without SFM (Maverick, BUG Control; Team America ... ).
- I would also consider Sanctum Prelate, for 2/3 cards combo matchups, like Sneak and Show, or Storm, and she's human, thus synergizes well with Cavern. Palace Jailer would also fit quite well.

I really am curious about Spirit of the Labyrinth tough. Is it really consistent? I mean, okay it gets the sometimes funny 2 cards off one's hand out of Vial in response to Brainstorm, but otherwise? I think a Grixis Delver player would care much more about a SFM on the board than a Spirit, in most circumstances. There were SFM fetching Batter would be an absolute must answer threat, the Spirit seems a little lackluster. But I didn't try it out, so I am eager to hear about it.

[Lord Darkview]

I also generally prefer the SFM builds, as I think they're pretty flexible and have a lot of staying power. This is my stock DnT list that I'm using right now, and it contains many of the cards you mentioned.

The SFM-less build was posted in response to some of the ideas put forward by Bahra on the bottom of the last page. Specifically, if you have a meta that either (a) packs enough artifact removal, (b) answers SFM with Cabal Therapy, or (c) simply combos out too fast for equipment to really have an impact, you may want an SFM-less alternative. If that's not your situation, than SFM is probably still the way to go.

I will point out that the Flagstones + Dust Bowl land set is not really more vulnerable to Wasteland than Caverns and Plains, but you're certainly correct about B2B and BM (as I implied when point out PoP). Most of the decks you're trying to beat with this build aren't likely to be backing BM or B2B, though.

[Moctzal]

I also generally prefer the SFM builds, as I think they're pretty flexible and have a lot of staying power. This is my stock DnT list that I'm using right now, and it contains many of the cards you mentioned.

The SFM-less build was posted in response to some of the ideas put forward by Bahra on the bottom of the last page. Specifically, if you have a meta that either (a) packs enough artifact removal, (b) answers SFM with Cabal Therapy, or (c) simply combos out too fast for equipment to really have an impact, you may want an SFM-less alternative. If that's not your situation, than SFM is probably still the way to go.

I will point out that the Flagstones + Dust Bowl land set is not really more vulnerable to Wasteland than Caverns and Plains, but you're certainly correct about B2B and BM (as I implied when point out PoP). Most of the decks you're trying to beat with this build aren't likely to be backing BM or B2B, though.

Running Stoneforge Mystic is likely a necessary evil for D&T to combat other creature matchups, and control matchups. Yes, equipment is mana intensive, but the repeatable value they generate isn’t really replaceable. Being able to remove creatures each turn with Jitte, draw cards, remove creatures, make every idiot a game ending threat with SoFaI, and stabilize with Batterskull are things we can’t really replace, and Stoneforge is a tutor we can deploy off Vial to find the specific type of equipment need for each particular situation. Yes sometime it gets blown out by cards like Kolghan’s Command, but despite that card, equipment is still good against Kommand decks, because when they don’t have it, equipment generates such massive advantage.

Flagstones being hit Wasteland at key times (like during your upkeep) does make them more vulnerable than a basic plains though, and they also make you weaker to Price of Progress. They’re by no means a free-roll. Running Dust Bowl over Cavern further pressures already stressed white mana for 1WW creatures as well, making your mana less consistent in comparison.

[Barook]

A new toy to play with. Although the 3-drop slots are already crowded.

[Mad Mat]

Played a 33 man tourney yesterday. Lost in the finals to sneaky show. He had show and tell emrakul both times and I did not have karakas. Game 1 he went off turn 3, despite uncounterable thalia. Game 2 he went off turn 1, dodging my planned sequence of vial -> cavern thalia + mom -> prelate. It just happens somedays, although I can't really complain as I managed to beat steel stompy in spite of the terrible odds.

Pontiff was amazing all day; a haunted judge's familiar even took a noble hierarch with it after chump blocking. I tried Restoration Angel as a fun card from the side, but never saw it all day (I boarded it in against the delver lists). Maybe I'll just put the Jailer back in, as at least he's recruitable and I missed a removal guy in that spot. I also wonder whether I'd want to keep in a single revoker against grixis delver, as a bunch of my game losses were to deathrite shaman drains I could have avoided if I had a revoker to recruit. Also an argument in favor of Rest in Peace again, I guess, but there's already five must board-ins there that ain't leaving the sideboard soon.

My combo hate did nothing all day, but there was also lands (RIP, prelate, kambal), moon stompy (prelate, kambal) and reanimator (rip) in top 8. Kambal was there mostly as a difficult-to-answer threat for grixis-based midrange and miracles, which might actually be on the decline, so maybe they can change into more generic slots as well. Again an argument in favor of jailer. If only there were something like P&K for BW...

R1: Grixis delver 2-1
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Big eldrazi 2-1
R4: Grixis delver 1-2
R5: UB delver 2-0
R6: ID
QF: Steel stompy 2-0
HF: Grixis delver 2-1
F: Sneaky show 0-2

23 LANDS
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
4 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

27 CREATURES
4 Flickerwisp
2 Judge's Familiar
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate

2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Swords to Plowshares
7 OTHER SPELLS
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Restoration Angel
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate

possible changes:
-2 Kambal
-1 Restoration Angel
+3 ?

Boarding:

-Grixis:
out=2 revoker, 1 mirran, 1 thalia, 2 familiar
in=1 path, 1 alliance, 1 pontiff, 2 council, 1 angel

-Infect:
out=2 revoker, 2 mirran, 1 skull, 1 stoneforge, 1 thalia, 2 avenger
in=1 alliance, 2 council, 2 canonist, 1 relic-warder, 1 pontiff, 1 path, 1 needle

-big eldrazi:
out=3 mother of runes, 2 judge's familiar
in=2 council, 1 alliance, 1 path, 1 angel (+ should have also been needle, in retrospect)

-UB delver:
out=2 revoker, 1 thalia, 2 familiar
in=1 path, 1 alliance, 2 council, 1 angel

-steel stompy:
out=3 mother of runes, 2 judge's familiar, 1 prelate, 2 thalia
in=1 path, 1 alliance, 2 council, 1 relic-warder, 1 pontiff, 1 needle, 1 angel

-sneaky show:
out=4 swords to plowshares, 2 mirran crusader, 1 jitte, 1 pontiff, 1 stoneforge
in=2 canonist, 2 council, 1 needle, 2 kambal, 1 relic-warder, 1 prelate,

[Bahra]

A new toy to play with. Although the 3-drop slots are already crowded.

I can't see ever playing this card, it's straight up terrible.

By the way I 5-0'd with my list without sfm and stp today. Played against 4c leovold, 4c leovold, grixis delver, turbo depths, BR reanimator.

And also I want to add that I think the 10th list in SCG cincinatti is extremely bad. 1 Revoker 1 canonist 1 containment priest main deck, 3 flickerwisp... WHY??? And don't even get me started about the sideboard. He basically took mono white D&T and butchered it completely.

[Lord Darkview]

I really wanted Danitha to be good, but she either costs too much, has one point of power too few, or both. Also, casting cost reduction doesn't help as much as an equipment cost reduction might, and auras are still way too fragile.

Also, looking at that 10th place list, it's pretty clear what he was trying to do: he played a bunch of cards that are super powerful in specific matchups and situations as silver bullets, along with three Recruiters to find them. Personally, I think it's a bit slow and fragile, and sacrifices the arsenal of better creatures too much, but it's certainly not the craziest idea I've ever seen.

Edit: Addendum: Also, one counterfeit Wasteland detected. Really unusual: rosette visible in picture, but text box was just a diamond dot layout (every other land has the rosette throughout the card). The vendor is being pretty good about fixing this, so far.

[ChrisCunningham]

Also, looking at that 10th place list, it's pretty clear what he was trying to do: he played a bunch of cards that are super powerful in specific matchups and situations as silver bullets, along with three Recruiters to find them. Personally, I think it's a bit slow and fragile, and sacrifices the arsenal of better creatures too much, but it's certainly not the craziest idea I've ever seen.

Having a lot of 1-ofs at CMC 2 and a lot of recruiters means your primary gameplan can be T1 vial, T3 uncounterable Recruiter and bomb 2drop from the vial.

But yea, having maindeck Containment Priest while shaving Flickerwisp is pretty insane. If you have Containment Priests in your deck, you want to play like 9 Flickerwisp.

This is the problem with our deck though; without card selection, we have high variance, so we can make poor deck choices and never draw the poor choices.

[Finn]

The biggest problem Danita has is Stoneforge Mystic existing. Assuming you have Batterskull in your sixty, SFM is just a way better card in every way. And it is senseless to have both.

[Lord Darkview]

So, this may seem like a silly question, but do we have a game plan against Burn with the more current lists? The only thing I can come up with is, "try not to take too much early damage, stick a Prelate on CMC=1, hope to not die to PoP and Fireblast before you close it out." Is this as bad as my gut says it is? And if so, what should we consider doing if we expect a field of 10% or so Burn?

[Bosque]

So, this may seem like a silly question, but do we have a game plan against Burn with the more current lists? The only thing I can come up with is, "try not to take too much early damage, stick a Prelate on CMC=1, hope to not die to PoP and Fireblast before you close it out." Is this as bad as my gut says it is? And if so, what should we consider doing if we expect a field of 10% or so Burn?

Try to play around PoP (open wastelands, holding back nonbasics if need be), be prepared to use StP on your own dudes, Prelate is pretty good, Jitte can gain life, Thalia slows them down, as would Canonist. If you have a lot of burn, there's always CoP:Red, Warmth and Kor Firewalker.

[Finn]

You can outplay Burn. He can not let you untap with Mystic. Try to get him to use his bolts on other creatures that seem inportant: Mother of Runes, Thalia, etc. They don’t have good library manipulation, so once they are out of good spot removal, they have to hard draw into more. Not all of theirs is instant speed. An eot Mystic off Vial can bring Batterskull or let you equip and attack with a Jitte. Tap Vial even when you have nothing to vial in. And yeah, keep STP at the ready.

[AsmodeusDM]

And also I want to add that I think the 10th list in SCG cincinatti is extremely bad. 1 Revoker 1 canonist 1 containment priest main deck, 3 flickerwisp... WHY??? And don't even get me started about the sideboard. He basically took mono white D&T and butchered it completely.

I agree completely; saw this list and was like "WTF???"

OTOH...

I am very eager to try out an SFM-Equipment-less build... I always feel that I'm locked into casting SFM on T2 and then hoping I get there 2 turns later... and that's all assuming that they dont' just kill my SFM or let me play out a jitte or SoFI and just kill the equip target.... basically without Mother on board and active going for SFM/Equipment/Equip is a complete crap-shoot... and it's SOOO SLOW.. Nowadays I find myself cutting 1-2 pieces of equipment everytime I board anyways and then cutting 2-3 SFMs. The exception is vs. Delver; but at the same time I know they are bringing in their artifact removal sideboard so I feel like I'm just walking into their sideboard plans and they can wait until I've invested 6+ mana trying to get something going before blowing me out completely :(

[AsmodeusDM]

You can outplay Burn. He can not let you untap with Mystic. Try to get him to use his bolts on other creatures that seem inportant: Mother of Runes, Thalia, etc. They don’t have good library manipulation, so once they are out of good spot removal, they have to hard draw into more. Not all of theirs is instant speed. An eot Mystic off Vial can bring Batterskull or let you equip and attack with a Jitte. Tap Vial even when you have nothing to vial in. And yeah, keep STP at the ready.

My Legacy teammate in Cinci this past weekend (I got stuck playing standard) played Burn and game prepared to win vs. D&T... he claims to have a 75%+ winrate on mtgo... and in some quick tests he went 4-1 vs me on D&T (2-0 G1's, 2-1 G2's)... He played 3 Grim Lavamancer's and 2 Firebolts in the main (for D&T, DRS, and Delvers).

[Curby]

Is Prelate on 1 vs Burn actually correct? It turns off our Swords for gaining life, and only hits 12 of their spells since their creatures aren't stopped by Prelate. Post-board they'll have at least 4 Searing Blooze and 3 Smash to Smithereens in addition to the Prices, which in addition to doing at least as much damage as a Bolt also often represent card advantage.

EDIT: They're also more likely to have cast their 1-drops by the time Prelate arrives on turn 3-4.