D&T actually predates Mana Tithe - it was made right after the printing of Time Spiral, i.e. Mangara/Flagstones. IIRC, Death stands for the aggro and Taxes for the mana denial.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
....which used to be a much greater component of the deck (ie. Rishadan Ports + Tangle Wire + Hokori, Dust Drinker). These days, the deck is more like just "Death", relatively speaking.Originally Posted by Nihil
Thanks guy. At first when I heard the name of the deck, I thought it had to do with Land Tax, but seeing as how 'Tax is banned, I thought it was a post-mortem version of the Tax deck. Silly me.
I clicked the link of the origin. I like the description of the proverb from which the name came ("Nothing is certain but death and taxes"): "It draws on the actual inevitability of death to highlight the difficulty in avoiding the burden of taxes. "
I can see how the description can applied to Magic when it comes to this deck. The inevitably of death comes the creatures and the burden of taxes comes from the mana denial. Clever.
Has anybody tested the Wg version? I think this deck looks pretty awesome, but I just feel fat like Tarmogoyf and then hate like Teeg good be really good.
A list I threw together.
Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Gaddok Teeg
4 Serra Avanger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Armageddon
Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Plains
SB
1 Armageddon
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Glowrider
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tivadar of Thorn
Hi Jak!
I wonder why you prefer Armageddon over Cataclysm? In most situations where I have found Cataclysm usefull is situations where you are outnumbered (for example against gobbos or other aggro decks).
You're right, but not completely.
Death and Taxes was the name Finn originally gave to his deck that abused Hokori + Vial + Karakas, and Cloud of Faeries with Grand Arbiter Augustin (the Tax Collector), among other things. He tried UW and then GW, but settled on mono white, which quickly got adopted by hundreds of people who were looking for an alternative to budget White Weenie.
It'd be nice if the creator of the deck got a little credit.
I don't know about 26 creatures. I have not had that amount since before I started using Cataclysm. But for sure,
1. Mana Tithe is not an especially strong card. I often move it to SB in favor of Oblivion Ring if I think I will not see combo that day.
2. Do not start removing gy hate creatures. They randomly win games at times and create an annoyance for a great number of decks - all while attacking and stuff.
I posted a black splash list a little while back. I think it is pretty strong and it has done great in MWS testing (not randoms, actual tier decks).
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
2 Plains
3 Windswept heath
4 Flooded strand
4 karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones
Thoughtsieze and vindicate give the deck much more versatile removal which helps alot as they are not dead in any matchup. Knight of meadowgrain is just a slight change from white knight which is mostly inferior to it. Dark confidant gives the deck much needed draw and it acts as a small beater.
Call me Ishmael
I have almost identical list to this, but I have replaced Knight of meadowgrain with cataclysm. How have they worked for you? Could the be replaced with Epochrasite? Have you been missing reseting power of Cat?
I'm also curious to know if you miss stonecloaker. Despite its polyvalence, I found him a bit weak and so consider him as the first set of cards I'm willing to remove to add something else (apart from the 2-mana guys who can change according to metagames and preferences). Do you think I'm wrong, and if so which set of cards (from the classic build) would you be willing to give up instead?
I use also Stonecloaker. In my opinion it's worth running atleast 2 off them (I run 3). It has some really nice interactions with all of the decks creatures. In addition to saving your creatures from removal and gaining card advantage and tempo it has really nice synergy with Mangara and jotun grunt. It's shame it cant be used if it is the only creture but that is the risk you have to take...
Gaining tempo? How?
True about the synergies, but if you play weathered wayfarer (instead of isamaru) to get more chances to hit karakas (along with some other cute tricks), you can support the mangara engine easily without stonecloaker (of course this makes you more vulnerable to blood moon and needle, but well).
My question was, if you HAD to remove a set of cards (particularly creatures), which one would you pick first? I know that all cards in the deck are usefull and synergic, but I'd like to know which you think is the least good.
Also, I'm curious to know whether you guys think switching between cataclysm main and oblivion ring side is a good idea. I seem to board my oblivions rings 75%, and I can hardly think of a situation where I would be displeased to get one. Cataclysm on the other hand is imo a sideboard card by nature, as it hits some decks (alot) harder than others. With all the thresh, aggro loam and dragon stompy decks (to name just a few) running around, I have it stuck in my hand far more often than I think is reasonnable.
Your opinion?
Hi Maëlig,
Il play 3 Wayfarer and 3 stonecloaker. Stonecloaker is so good with my 3 Grunt. It can remove Bridge from below, Life from the loam, genesis, etc... in the grave, and (generally) it don't take chalice of the void or counterbalance. It's a good aggro creature with flying and i like bounce one mangara with it to keep the pressure on my opponent, and often : I active Mangara, in reponse i active karakas, my opponent plays Sword or bolt in reponse and i play Stonecloaker in reponse.
I ALWAYS play Stonecloaker in reponse because it's always a very bad surprise for the opponent.
For the gravehate i don't play samurai of the pale curtain because i don't like the interaction with Grunt. So i must keep Stonecloaker in maindeck.
In France Goblins come back with strong results. For me 3 Silver knight main and 3 Tivadar of thorn in sideboard are necessary actually.
I'm going to play D&T at Paris on Saturday. I'll give you some news.
@Marko: You should post your list, we might be able to help you with it. Also your reasons for running stonecloaker arent exactly spectacular. Sure it can remove a brigde and a loam or whatever you need, but you hit 1 card for 3 mana and to bounce a creature. Stonecloaker is very narrow and in most builds your not going to want be be wasting your mana on cloaker. When i was testing the card, in every single game i wanted it to be a different creature except for once. Its especially bad in builds where you splash a color.
Call me Ishmael
I play D&T only in monowhite version.
For me the best qualities of Stonecloaker are the surprise and the card advantage. I understand that you don't want to play it if you splash.
Yes, Aether Vial is my friend. Put 3 counters on vial only for Mangara is not optimum.
My list is close to the original of Flinn :
12 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Silver Knight
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mana Tithe
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 True Believer
Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
2 True Believer
1 Cataclysm
2 Abolish
3 Tivadar of Thorn
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
Actually, In France, the metagame is open. Less ***** but more dragon stompy, Ichoride, Goblins, landstill than a few weeks.
@marko and Maelig, Weathered Wayfarer also seems a bit odd to me. Every other critter we run is either effective removal, effective in combat, or both, but this guy is a small, vulnerable tutor in a highly consistent deck and ties up mana in the critical early turns of the game. Wouldn't a bounce-able 2/2 for 1 be better? How many activations do you normally see in a typical game? I'd love the extra mana to pull off more consistent Cataclysms, but still, he just seems so small.
I agree that Cataclysm is pretty meta-dependent, but in many games against big critters I'd still rather cast it. I'd rather Dragon Stompy lose its mana base and be stuck with 1 killable creature than have it topdecking huge bombs to race with my weenies. Against Thresh it's a valid point, and is more likely to be countered if the tradeoff would be detrimental to them (they could also Daze your open mana just to protect a land).
This is probably dumb, but has anyone considered using a few Ancient Tombs? Stonecloaker, Jitte, Cataclysm, and Oblivion Ring could benefit from it. Sometimes I really have to stretch to pull off a Cataclysm (or even more so, a double Cat). I'm probably saying this because I only have 2 Rishadan Ports and 2 Ancient Tombs right now.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Salut Marko, sympa de te voir ici.
About wayfarer, I've been happy with him so far and am not willing to trade him back for isamaru. My reasons are a bit different from marko's, since I do not play stonecloaker so I really need to have a karakas when mangara comes out (plus the fact that I play Lin who is bouncable). Other than that, let's state the obvious : wayfarer is good when you need him, ie when you are manascrewed. So yes, I think it makes the deck more consistent and it has allowed me to take out a land or two. Other than that, if your opponent plays alot of non-basic you can regularly take out the "extra" land he puts to keep your board advantage or simply to make him run out of ressources (since you probably also draw lands during these turns, you can recover from this wasteland soft-lock pretty easily). Jotun allows you to keep on wastelanding if need be (although it hasn't happened to me often). Finally, I also play a signle tutorable mishra's factory, which I haven't used much but is nice against sweepers.
Do I need to say that he is a HOSE against landstill (not a great MU imo)? One game I rember my opponent playing a standstill (with nothing else on his side) while I had this guy. Next few turns he tries to slip in some manlands which all get wasted, and after having fetched a mishra's factory he was obliged to break his own standstill. Next game, he FoWed wayfarer without hesitation on 1st turn.
Hmm, a land toolbox is interesting. Would you mind posting your manabase (or full list?)
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
10 plains
3 karakas
2 flagstones
4 wasteland
1 mishra
1 CoK
3 wayfarer
4 serra avenger
4 knight of the holy nimbus
2 jotun
2 true believer
3 mangara
3 lin
4 vial
4 stp
4 mana tithe
3 catclysm/oblivion ring (I'm still unsure about this)
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