[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Maëlig]

As you all know, one of the weakness of this deck are board-sweepers. In a meta full of EE, deed and devastating dreams, could kight of the holy nimbus be a viable option? I've been running him for a while now because of the mini-rebel engine, and I've found that he's actually quite good by himself. He gives you tempo advantage (which is an area where this deck doesn't really shine imho) and is great with jitte or cataclysm (and simply with wasteland/port). Your opinion?

[loop]

I'm not so sure that D+T is so weak against sweepers (we're even running one ourselves); if you don't overcommit creatures, you shouldn't run out of steam against decks packing sweepers. Actually, most of the time I'm more concerned about losing Vial/jitte on a Deed than a few creatures.
Besides, what creature would you cut for KotHN ? In the build(s) proposed by Finn, the creature base seems tightly packed : 3 disruptive beaters, 2 vanilla-but-so-underpriced creatures (Isamaru and Serra Avenger), and 1 wild card (Stonecloaker). Cutting disruptive creatures for resilient beaters seems like an overall bad move to me (just like I'm now using Believer again, instead of Silver Knight)... so I'd say it's either Isamaru or Avenger. Avenger seems too good to cut, so I guess KotHN is competing with Isamaru for the slot.
Mmh, actually they seem equally good. Isamaru+Karakas tricks allow him to survive through trickery and he fits better in the curve, but KotHN just won't die in the first place, and you can have multiples... I guess it's up to personal preference. KotHN does get jitte counters tho, while a bounced Isamaru won't get any.
With the rebel engine you're using KotHN is awesome, but in Finn's build, I'm not sure...

[Kuma]

KotHN is a decent option, but I wouldn't cut Isamaru for him. I run 4 Isamaru in my build and the problems with his legendary status are negligable. Isamaru does so much in D&T, sets the mana curve, gives you something to do with Aether Vial at 1, chump blocks all day with Karakas, stops turn 1 Goblin Lackey, eats non-threshed Mongooses for breakfast, and speeds up your damage clock.

I'd cut SotPC, Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, or True Believer for him if your meta is light on Thresh and Ichorid.

[MTL10]

I realize that Karakas is really important in this deck, but how often do you have problems with the legendary rule with it running 4 of in the main deck? i could understand running 3, seeing as it's amazing with the creatures of this deck.

[loop]

@ Kuma
I agree. And Isamaru being legendary is actually not a drawback at all here... of course you can't play multiples, but then again you don't want to overcommit anyway, since you should always think about your post-Cataclysm game.

@ MTL10
Multiple Karakas do happen a lot, but then I just sac the one in play to cataclysm and play the other afterwards... Or have a second one to play after wasteland. All in all, playing 4 is never a bad idea.

[Melwis]

I've recently got my eyes on this deck and I think it is really fun to play! After several MWS games this is what my list looks now (going to bed after this post):

// Lands
4 [ARE] Plains (7)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ARE] Swamp (4)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Vindicate

I think the black splash is solid giving the deck some very needed card draw trough Confidant. Sensei's is what I added in the list most recently and it works really well combined with Confidant and fetches.

As you can see I don't include Cataclysm because has many others have said I think it's kinda situational and not very good versus lots of decks out there.

The most funny thing about this deck is there is so many cards that I really want to try out:

- All the 2cc creatures including Spectral Lynx now that I have black.

- Discard (Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy)

- StP, Oblivion Ring, Bitterblossom, Exalted Angel (though risky with Confidant I know but with Sensei's it should work), Worship (why not?), Reverent Mantra (wincon or prot for your creatures sounds good?)

Tell me what you think about the list and these suggestions! :)

PS: I'm aware that the list is some mixture between Deadguy Ale and D&T (or something) but since I started developing it in this thread i'm posting here :)

[ebbitten]

I hate to be a downer but you're running a lot of cards that were dismissed after a good deal of testing including: Negator, Weathered Wayfarer, Top and running Wasteland over Port. Catacylsm still seems like it should be good against enough of the decks to still run and STP always seemed like a staple to me.

Don't take these comments to hard though, innovate as long as you are willing to do legitimate testing.

[Melwis]

I hate to be a downer but you're running a lot of cards that were dismissed after a good deal of testing including: Negator, Weathered Wayfarer, Top and running Wasteland over Port. Catacylsm still seems like it should be good against enough of the decks to still run and STP always seemed like a staple to me.

Don't take these comments to hard though, innovate as long as you are willing to do legitimate testing.

Well sure, i'm not saying i've discovered the ultimate decklist here or anything but still it has been very promising. If you ask me Weathered Wayfarer is just nuts not to play since he can turn into a Wasteland softlock or get you Karakas when you need that. I haven't tried Port in the deck so far jsut because i'm not a big fan of the land. What makes it so much better than Wasteland in this deck exactly?

I must say that Negator is better than you think in this deck atleast as a 2-of since versus some decks you can just throw him out and end the match quickly without worrying about him taking damage. But with Mother of Runes in the field you don't have to worry at all about Negator's usual drawback.

StP might deserve a spot in the list I agree on that. But between your creatures, Mangara, Vindicate and Jitte you usually have some way to deal with them still.

[ebbitten]

The problem with negator is two fold in my mind. First he isn't all that much bigger than goyf and he actually costs 1 more, and you can't reasonably dark rit him out 1st turn in a WB deck. Second His drawback is still aplicable a lot of the time, and having to have mother of runes to negate Negator's drawback takes away part of what made this deck so good: each creature is a legitimate threat without the help of other creatures. Still if its proving succesful you can continue to test it, just be objective in your testing and don't try to defend a card simply because once upon a time it was in your list.

[Melwis]

The problem with negator is two fold in my mind. First he isn't all that much bigger than goyf and he actually costs 1 more, and you can't reasonably dark rit him out 1st turn in a WB deck. Second His drawback is still aplicable a lot of the time, and having to have mother of runes to negate Negator's drawback takes away part of what made this deck so good: each creature is a legitimate threat without the help of other creatures. Still if its proving succesful you can continue to test it, just be objective in your testing and don't try to defend a card simply because once upon a time it was in your list.

I guess most things you mention are true but I still don't think 2 Negators in a list with 4 Mothers can be all that bad. It really is a surprise for your opponent aswell because they will certainly not suspect Negator. Even more so is it when you got Vial on 2 counters upping it to 3 and then BANG you throw out a 5/5 at end of opponents turn :)

But anyways. I decided to listen to what you said and cut both Negator and Mother. I did however stay with black because I really think I have something going here. This is how the list turned out this time:

// Lands
4 [ARE] Plains (7)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ARE] Swamp (4)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
2 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [A] Swords to Plowshares

I added 2 Stonecloakers and they did help so I understand why many lists include them (but 3 might be a bit to much unless you have LOTS of creatures imo). I decided to try out Lynx and the first opponent I faced was an Elf deck and I got Lynx + Jitte out so it was pretty sweet :) But I think the card should be a house versus Goyf which i've heard does see atleast some play in Legacy..? The regenerate is just a bonus the way I see it.

And Weathered Wayfarer is so stupid I just can't leave myself playing any less than 4. Especially since i'm running 2 colors he's another way to not make you go color screwed. Besides doing that he also fetches Karakas or works as Wasteland lock (sometimes atleast). I think 2-3 of these in every list more or less is a no brainer but in my I really want 4!

I'm not to sure about Sensei's Divinig Top anymore. It helps out dodging damage taken from Confidant but I just realised you are more likely winning anyways if you got a Confidant to stay so it might not be all that great. However it does give you some more card quality especially since iv'e got fetches. But these might get cut for 2 more Swords or something else.

I really want to have another Mangara, Jitte and Serra Avenger but right now there just isn't room. If Lynx turns out to be mediocre then I will swap them for Jitte + Avenger probably. Cutting 1 Vindicate for 1 Mangara might also be worth it perhaps?

That's it for now! Any help or suggestions with my list is appreciated alot :)

[ebbitten]

just at a glance i would cut the SDTs for STPs, the swamp for the 4th karakas (i know its legendary but all the testing from this deck supports this) and maybe one of the vindicates for another avenger or something, the 3cc is just a little crowded. Active confident will never really make you worry because the average cc is incredibly low especially w/o tombstalker or catacylsm. Worst case scenario you remove a couple jitte counters for life.

[Melwis]

just at a glance i would cut the SDTs for STPs, the swamp for the 4th karakas (i know its legendary but all the testing from this deck supports this) and maybe one of the vindicates for another avenger or something, the 3cc is just a little crowded. Active confident will never really make you worry because the average cc is incredibly low especially w/o tombstalker or catacylsm. Worst case scenario you remove a couple jitte counters for life.

Yeah just as I predicted (and as you suggest) the SDT's has been cut for STP's since Sensei's where more or less unnecassary. I have also cut the swamp because you really want WW in the deck but i'm not adding a 4th Karakas in the list. The reason 3 Karakas is enough in my list is simple; Weathered Wayfarer. Thanks to him I really don't think 4 Karakas is correct. I have also swapped 1 Wasteland for 1 Rishadan Port just for those times where Port is better than Wasteland (when you got Vial out for example). With Wayfarer Port is easily fetched for so just having 1 in the deck still lets you get it when you need it!

Spectral Lynx has been cut aswell just because the only thing it's really good against is Goyf but I think the cards that takes it's place, 1 Serra Avenger and 1 Jitte, is just strictly better. Besides, with 3 Jotun Grunts in the list Goyf isn't that scary as you might think!

I don't think running 8 cards with cmc 3 is gonna lose you the game thanks to Confidants more than it wins you the game. If you play any less this deck has a very hard time dealing with Chalice and/or Trinisphere (it still does) but having enough cards that costs 3 helps a bit. And as you said, you got Jitte as life gain to save you in those unlucky moments.

With all these changes this is how the list looks now:

// Lands
5 [ARE] Plains (7)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [LG] Karakas
1 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

[ebbitten]

looks about how i would make it (except i never had great success w/ wayfarer, just too often the oppenent can play around it) now you should probably start working on the sb, the biggest problem is definitely storm combo and then after that it really depends on your meta.

[Kuma]

Why do people insist on splashing in this deck? I would like it if some of the splashers read my post #270 and answered my questions.

[Melwis]

None whatsoever. Splashing makes you vulnerable to Wastelands, Moons, B2B, and makes it harder to use Cataclysm, which is the nuts in this deck. Splashing also makes you run fetchlands, which really hurts the Dragon Stompy matchup.

In the black splash, Vindicate is only a slight upgrade over Oblivion Ring. Thoughtseize is nice, and Bob is pretty sweet, but I'm not sure what matchups black improves enough to warrent the splash.

The green splash is worse. Gaddock Teeg helps with Storm, but that matchup is always going to be bad, and there are already plenty of white/artifact cards that help: Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Mana Tithe, Glowrider, Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst. Tarmogoyf is a great beater, but is anti-synergistic with the graveyard denial strategies of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Jotun Grunt, and Stonecloaker. Krosan Grip does very little that Oblivion Ring, Disenchant, and Mangara don't do already.

Blue isn't that great either. Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle, Meddling Mage, Leyline of Singularity was always fun, but I've never had a build that ran enough blue to use Force of Will or Daze, which is the biggest reason to add blue.

I just don't see how splashing adds to the deck. You make yourself more vulnerable to mana denial which hurts the Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, The Rock, and Vial Goblins matchups. Since the cards I've seen cut the most from these lists are Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, which hurt the Ichorid, Threshold, and Loam/Confinement matchups to name but a few decks that use the graveyard, I have to ask all you guys who splash in D&T -- What do you gain that offsets these losses?

The biggest reason I see in splasing black is simply because of Dark Confidant and the card advantage that he gives you (or the creature removal he soaks up). If you look at my list and remove Confidant, what white creature could possibly weight up the loss of Confidant?

I also think the SB gets better aswell since you now have discard against combo (I know you got True Believer in white but most combo decks can handle him). Plague is also available but not sure you need it vs. Goblins since you got Jitte but still, it's a choice.

And in my list I haven't cut either Grunt or Stonecloaker so I guess that point doesn't add in against me..

[Valtrix]

I don't really think a (black) splash is neccessary. Generally, if you have enough creatures, you're going to be putting enough pressure on them already. If they could deal with all those creatures to begin with, then having a draw engine sometimes probably won't help out a ton. Adding a splash just begs for more inconsistency. However, because you have 4 vials, it really wouldn't be that hard to splash just for bob, and fetches do have some synergy with grunt. You open yourself up to a lot of nonbasic hate, which is run quite a bit in the metgame right now, so I don't think it'd be worth it. (I suppose you could get a scrubland off flagstones though.) It'd be manageable, but I don't think it would really make the deck "better" overall.

[Kuma]

The biggest reason I see in splasing black is simply because of Dark Confidant and the card advantage that he gives you (or the creature removal he soaks up). If you look at my list and remove Confidant, what white creature could possibly weight up the loss of Confidant?

I also think the SB gets better aswell since you now have discard against combo (I know you got True Believer in white but most combo decks can handle him). Plague is also available but not sure you need it vs. Goblins since you got Jitte but still, it's a choice.

And in my list I haven't cut either Grunt or Stonecloaker so I guess that point doesn't add in against me..

I suppose having some card advantage helps with the board control matchups. That said, your list seems slightly better against board control and storm combo in exchange for significantly weakening your Goblin and Ichorid matchups. You're probably hurting your Thresh matchup too, because you only have nine creatures who can trade with or kill a Threshed mongoose, and five of them require you to jump through hoops to be effective (Stonecloaker and Jotun Grunt). The other problem I see is that you have only ten threats that don't have stipulations or conditions attached to them, six if you count Isamaru being legendary as a stipulation. Most decks have enough spot removal to make your life miserable.

I don't know what your metagame is like, so in that light some of your decisions may be justifiable, but you solve all the problems by playing mono-white and running some solid creatures.

[Tanarin]

Why do people insist on splashing in this deck? I would like it if some of the splashers read my post #270 and answered my questions.

I dunno, but I can testify to the fact that Cataclysm is the nuts in this deck. While most decks can deal with a WoG or an Armageddon, almost none want to see what equates to a big fat reset button hit the stack. I was actually in a game this week where I was down to 2 life against a UW Fish build and topdecked one for the win. What was especially nice was the fact that most of that game I was locked out of my Serra Avengers (Meddling Mage) Aether vial, AND Jitte (Both on pithing needles.) Once this hit the board he had to sac the Mage as I had a SotP out to block/kill it anyway and hope he drew a 2nd land for the Sygg he basically had to leave out in order to win. Thankfully he didn't and it was promptly karakas'ed next turn.

[Melwis]

Ok maybe it's alot different for you folks because the truth is i'm not playing in any Magic tournaments whatsoever so I don't have to think about "a certain meta" or SB for that matter. Just tought I'd let you know :)

That said, your list seems slightly better against board control and storm combo in exchange for significantly weakening your Goblin and Ichorid matchups.

Engineered Plague has to help against Goblins no? And both Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker should be solid against Ichorid if you ask me.

You're probably hurting your Thresh matchup too, because you only have nine creatures who can trade with or kill a Threshed mongoose, and five of them require you to jump through hoops to be effective (Stonecloaker and Jotun Grunt).

Exactly what creatures am I missing that you could fit in a mono-white build that handles a threshed Mongoose anyways? If I get a Grunt out vs Threshold that should help alot because in 1 perhaps 2 turns that Mongoose is no longer threshed. Stonecloaker being an instant play could handle Mongoose right away should your opponent attack with 7 cards in his GY.

Still. If you're worried about Threshold and you think going black hurts this matchup I could see Spectral Lynx being a SB card perhaps?

The other problem I see is that you have only ten threats that don't have stipulations or conditions attached to them, six if you count Isamaru being legendary as a stipulation. Most decks have enough spot removal to make your life miserable.

This might be true but this has nothing to do with the splash since Confidant is one of the creatures without a stipulation/condition. Stonecloaker and/or Jotun Grunt could be cut down (but 2 Grunts MD is solid). I haven't felt this to be a problem yet but if I do I will probably think about trying to fix this a bit!

[Wargoos]

And both Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker should be solid against Ichorid if you ask me

They do exactly nothing against Icho, Icho wins in 1-2 Turns.
Removing one Card is not enough GY Disruption. They will just go off, and ran the Grunt over.
Solid GY hate is the Samurai of the pale curtain.