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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #321

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I have see the last list of Finn. There is Flickerwisp inside. I think there is a great tricks between Flickerwisp, Aether vial and oblivion ring. What do you think of that new creature in D&T ?

  2. #322
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Flickerwisp is a good example of versatility. Not like True Believer, which is only "versatile" (more correctly: useful) if your opponent is playing a very specific deck, but actually versatile because there are like more than 5 different synergetic interactions within your own deck (Mangara tricks, Oblivion Ring tricks, Jotun Grunt reset, Aether Vial reset, Cataclysm evasion, ...) and it also has savage interactions with some cards played in the format (Dreadnought removal, reset Vial/Smokestack, X for 1 against a gangblock, remove potential blocker, mana denial, ...). I'm afraid however, that the curve becomes too much top-heavy - but I might be biased since I'm absolutely used to playing 20 lands, whereas Finn plays 22.
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  3. #323
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by marko View Post
    I think there is a great tricks between Flickerwisp, Aether vial and Stonecloaker.
    Fix'd

  4. #324
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I think he probably meant Oblivion Ring, Shawon.

    1. Play Oblivion Ring.
    2. With it's removal trigger on the stack (targeting, say, a Siege-Gang Commander), activate Aether Vial.

    stack = 1. remove SGC (O-ring trigger) 2. Vial activation

    3. Vial resolves. Vial in the Flickerwisp. Put its ability on the stack targeting your own Oblivion Ring.

    stack = 1. remove SGC 2. remove O-ring (wisp trigger)

    4. Flickerwisp resolves removing Oblivion Ring. Oblivion Ring's second ability goes on the stack.

    stack = 1. remove SGC 2. return SGC (O-ring trigger)

    5. Oblivion Ring's second ability resolves, returning the Siege-Gang Commander to play, which, of course never left in the first place - so nothing happens. (Technically, I think this ability gets removed from the stack, but the result is the same)

    stack = 1. remove SGC

    6. Oblivion Ring's first ability then resolves, removing Siege-Gang Commander from the game never to return.
    7. At the end of your turn, Flickerwisp's delayed trigger returns Oblivion Ring to play, removing another nonland permanent from the game as normal.


    @Brehn: Oblivion Ring and now Flickerwisp have really toploaded the curve. It sucks that way. But I did not have problems in the one tournament I played it in. It is certainly not a done deal, especially considering the problems this deck has with turn two. But unlike most things I try in that slot that usually just suck, this one felt like it gave me options. Has anyone else tried this out yet?

  5. #325
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder how good Cataclysm actually is. Looking through the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forum, I was underwhelmed.

    Goblins: Good, but this is already a great matchup. The deck is on the decline anyway.

    Threshold: Bad, we side this card out here anyway.

    Landstill/ITF/VoroshStill: I'm not very experienced in this matchup, but it seems good here.

    Enchantress: Good.

    Aggro Loam/43 Land: Great if you have a SotPC. Otherwise bad against Aggro Loam and middling against 43 Land.

    Burn: Bad

    The Rock: Bad

    Dreadstill: Bad

    MUC: Bad

    Storm: Could kill Warrens tokens, but that would require you to live to at least turn 4. Bad.

    Ichorid: Mostly bad, could be decent if they get a slow roll.

    Am I missing something here, or does Cataclysm seem like a sideboard card? I think I'm going to try it there for a while. My meta is Landstill light anyway.

    On another note, Flickerwisp is awesome.

    Here's what I'm currently running in my Goblins, Thresh, and random metagame.

    // Lands
    4 [LG] Karakas
    4 [MM] Rishadan Port
    11 [UNH] Plains
    3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

    // Creatures
    3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
    4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
    2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
    4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
    4 [SC] Silver Knight
    3 [EVE] Flickerwisp

    // Spells
    4 [DS] AEther Vial
    4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
    3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
    3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
    SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
    SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
    SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
    SB: 1 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
    SB: 3 [EX] Cataclysm
    Last edited by Kuma; 08-19-2008 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Updated Sideboard
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    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  6. #326
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post
    MUC: Bad
    nonononononono. Resolve Cataclysm and you win. MUC needs to have lands in play to work. Cataclysm and Aether Vial are the key spells for winning this matchup.

    But I agree that Cataclysm is a sideboard card, and if it's only because it's horrible against Threshold. Bad thing is that the Landstill matchup gets even worse without mainboard Cataclysms.
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Brehn View Post
    nonononononono. Resolve Cataclysm and you win.
    The operant word there being "resolve"

    There's no MUC or Landstill in my metagame anyway. Good to see someone agrees with me in principle though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  8. #328
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I have some testing results on this deck.

    I think I am likely to adopt Flickerwisp permanently. It is awesome with Vial and underwhelming without. So you can expect to be siding it out against a lot of opponents. I am not happy about the growing mana curve. It is getting a little out of hand. But damn it is fun when you have an active Vial.

    Last night I found another use. I Vialed it in at oponent's eot and removed Standstill during my entire turn.

    Anyway
    I am doing better against Stax, Threshold, and Landstill at the expense of nearly nonexistent combo with True Believer out.


    Here is the list I am using it in. Any good advice from experienced players of the deck about how to fight the mana curve problem would be appreciated.

    3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial

    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Jotun Grunt
    3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
    4 Serra Avenger

    3 Oblivion Ring
    3 Mangara of Corondor
    3 Stonecloaker
    3 Flickerwisp

    3 Cataclysm

    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Karakas
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    11 Plains

    sb:
    3 Tivadar of Thorn
    3 Glowrider
    2 Jotun Grunt
    4 Orim's Chant
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

  9. #329
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I think I am likely to adopt Flickerwisp permanently.
    Me too. Flickerwisp is the best thing to happen to D&T in a long time. I want to fit a fourth one in somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It is awesome with Vial and underwhelming without. So you can expect to be siding it out against a lot of opponents.
    I disagree. Flickerwisp is indeed awesome with with Vial, but it is hardly underwhelming without it. For a long time, what D&T has needed is more 3 power creatures with useful abilities, and Flickerwisp has two useful abilities (flying and blinking a permanent). I've ran the deck with Flickerwisps in a few tournaments, and Flickerwisp makes it much easier to beat down your opponent. There were a few games where his 3 power and flying won me the game.

    Flickerwisp does so much even without a Vial:
    - Resets Jotun Grunt
    - Lets you switch an O-Ring target
    - Nullifies Engineered Explosives
    - Kills Dreadnought
    - Resets opposing Aether Vials
    - Lets you remove a tapped land so you can have an untapped land ready to StP
    - Mold Cataclysm to your advantage
    - Remove blockers for a turn
    - Remove Counterbalance/Meddling Mage for a turn to resolve a key spell

    When you count all the things he does with a vial, Flickerwisp is an amazing card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I am not happy about the growing mana curve. It is getting a little out of hand. But damn it is fun when you have an active Vial.
    I'm not sure the growing mana curve is such a problem when there are Counterbalances running rampant. The average mana cost of a card in my list, including land, is 1.25, and without land 1.97. That dosesn't seem like a problem to me, especially when we run 22 land and Aether Vial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I am doing better against Stax, Threshold, and Landstill at the expense of nearly nonexistent combo with True Believer out.
    I'm with you on this one. As long as your meta has 0-1 combo decks, you probably don't need the undersized True Believer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Here is the list I am using it in. Any good advice from experienced players of the deck about how to fight the mana curve problem would be appreciated.
    Your average mana cost is 2.18. I'd put Cataclysm in the sideboard, but that's the only major change I'd make to your list. My list makes a few other small changes that reduce mana cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  10. #330
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Although somewhat meta dependent, I believe one thing that wins games for Death and Taxes is its 3 cc dodging counterbalance. Flickerwisp is an amazing addition to this.

    I also agree with boarding cataclysms, unless your meta is heavy aggro (I know it's good against control, but it is hard to get it through). It's just worthless against threshold, which is too common to be trying to mainboard cataclysm. If threshold ever takes a plummet like goblins did, then I could see this returning to the mainboard, but as of now the SB seems like its new home.

    Another side note about flickerwisp, it makes the deck even more fun to play :)

  11. #331

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I have my Cataclysms in the sideboard. My thinking goes like this: if you put all your disruptive creatures in the main, you have no truly dead cards. You can always board some of them out in favor of stuff like Cataclysm later.

    Is Flickerwisp really that good? It does not seem to do very much. Maybe I should read a few of the posts since I last logged in.
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  12. #332
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    .
    Last edited by Volt; 10-12-2008 at 12:34 AM.
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  13. #333
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder how good Cataclysm actually is. Looking through the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forum, I was underwhelmed.

    The Rock: Bad

    Dreadstill: Bad

    MUC: Bad

    Am I missing something here, or does Cataclysm seem like a sideboard card? I think I'm going to try it there for a while. My meta is Landstill light anyway.

    On another note, Flickerwisp is awesome.
    Am I missing something or are all of these a little off?
    I'm pretty sure I'd love to resolve Cata against The Rock. Dropping them down to one land is going to be a huge boost, even if they have loam recursion (which I'm not sure they do pre-board). After that you can just go back to creature beats while they're trying to dig up more land.

    As a Dreadstill player, who's friend plays D&T, I can tell you that Cata is bad news for us unless we have dreadnought or goyf on the table. If that's the case, You really shouldn't be dropping Cata, unless you have removal. If we don't have an active creature, the reset on our lands is pretty ugly. It's not really a GG setup, but it sure stings. While Dreadstill plays out a lot like thresh, remember that we still do the Factory\Standstill thing, and barring the GGnought hand, we try to play control in this matchup.

  14. #334
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Every Rock list I've played against runs discard, loam, and big creatures. It's hard to talk about the Rock matchup, because there's like 40,000,000 lists out there, but I'm sure that most of them have two or three of those things.

    How could Cataclysm possibly be good against Dreadstill? The deck only needs two mana to function, and has the biggest creature around. Your choices for Cataclysm are ridiculous. Dreadstill can keep a board like Dreadnought, Goyf, Counterbalance, Land. Or maybe Dreadnought, Top, Counterbalance, Land. Never mind that the deck is packed with countermagic, so even resolving a Cataclysm could be difficult. I also run 12 mainboard answers to Dreadnought (4 StP, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Mangara, and 3 Flickerwisp) with two more answers in the board (1 Mangara and 1 Oblivion Ring). If you don't have a beater or a counterspell by turn 4-6, you've done something terribly wrong.

    I honestly think I'd rather have three extra threats vs. MUC than Cataclysm, but I'm pretty unexperienced in the matchup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    How would Nitewolf have said this?... P_R went over the line. But it was about naming cats. Also, Anus Mittens is a good name for a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    "Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."

    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  15. #335
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma
    I honestly think I'd rather have three extra threats vs. MUC than Cataclysm, but I'm pretty unexperienced in the matchup.
    Cataclysm is usually gg in this one. It makes their Shackles worthless, and it sets them back so much more than you.

    There is one thing I really like about taking out Cataclysysm - sorta. Volt was saying that he has removed his Ports. I think I would do the same. Once you do that, however, you don't need to put in more Plains. You could

    a. Put Mishra's Factories in. This seems like it would have some real advantage, especially in the now VERY hard Landstill matchups.
    b. Splash into black. This is something I have always toyed with. Oblivion Rings could become Vindicates (no more Flickerwisp hotness with O.Ring - do we really keep O.Ring over Vindicate because of this?). But then you have the awesome 2-drop we have all been clamoring for in Confidant. I have a bit of concern about this with all the 3-cost stuff. Perhaps we could trim some of the pricier creatures. You also have some pretty nice options for the sb in Duress, etc.
    c. Something I have not thought of yet.

  16. #336
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Or you could, you know, splash for Gaddock Teeg which is absolutely completely stone-fucking great in this deck, having massive synergy with Karakas and simultaneously filling up the hole against both combo and control. That you also get to run Tarmogoyf over the utility bear of your choice is just icing on the cake.

    Or you could also go further. If one is willing to bastardize the mana base even more, there is a certain 3cc Legend which is pretty good at putting the beats on for a reasonable price. If I were to bring out D&T at a tournament right now, I'd go with the safer splash build, but I've also been trying out this list:

    // Lands
    4 [PR] Scrubland
    3 [PR] Savannah
    4 [PR] Windswept Heath
    5 [UNH] Plains
    3 [ON] Flooded Strand
    3 [LG] Karakas

    // Creatures
    3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
    3 [UL] Mother of Runes
    3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
    4 [PR] Tarmogoyf
    2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
    2 [CHK] Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
    2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
    2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower

    // Spells
    3 [DS] AEther Vial
    3 [PR] Cabal Therapy
    3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
    2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
    2 [AP] Vindicate

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg


    The very small number of 4-ofs is completely intended. Some of them are awesome in singles and terrible in multiples, while not being critical to the game plan; others are just in testing, and running a mix of more cards allows me to test faster.
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  17. #337
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    That seems more like 3C White Weenie with a few Karakas and Mangara thrown in. I'm not arguing whether or not that'd be better or worse, but certainly it gets rid of the frame that attempts to make this an actual unique deck.


    Why not run Momentary Blink, though? Blue also has some other creatures that could be very powerful. Venser in particular screams to be used with Karakas.

    Also, if you want an SB slot that absolutely wrecks control, I recommend some combination of Karmic Guide and Reveillark. Either have potential by themselves, but together they make your board essentially Wrath-proof.
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  18. #338
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    That seems more like 3C White Weenie with a few Karakas and Mangara thrown in. I'm not arguing whether or not that'd be better or worse, but certainly it gets rid of the frame that attempts to make this an actual unique deck.


    Why not run Momentary Blink, though? Blue also has some other creatures that could be very powerful. Venser in particular screams to be used with Karakas.
    What makes me like Karakas in the first place is that it's incredibly cheap for what it does. I've moved away from Stonecloaker because having 2W open to use it was terribly clunky and a blatant tell, and it made me vulnerable to removal about as often as it protected against it. But at least it worked great with Ęther Vial, something Blink can't claim. Also, Blink does nothing against sweepers.

    Also, if you want an SB slot that absolutely wrecks control, I recommend some combination of Karmic Guide and Reveillark. Either have potential by themselves, but together they make your board essentially Wrath-proof.
    You mean Karmic Justice, right? That would be nice indeed, answering Deed and Wrath in one neat package. I've used Needle so far, but that card's purpose was hitting Deed and Explosives nine times out of ten anyway. Good pointer.

    As for Reveillark, though, no way. A 5-6 mana card has no place in a deck with ~22 lands.
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  19. #339
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    No, I meant Karmic Guide. Ramp up to that 5cc slot on Aether Vial.
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  20. #340
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    But you'd need to ramp it up to five mana before the Deedhammer comes down, which looks unlikely. And it's even worse with Karmic Guide, since you need to play that one after the sweeper.


    I think you might have stumbled upon something very very sexy for the Moat Stompy deck, though.
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