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Thread: [DTB] Death and Taxes

  1. #21

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    4 Mana Tithe
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Serra Avenger
    3 Silver Knight
    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    3 Stonecloaker
    3 Mangara of Corondor
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    2 Flagstones of Trokair
    4 Windswepth Heath
    4 Savannah
    3 Plains
    1 Forest

    sb:
    1 Condemn
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Orim's Chant
    3 Krosan Grip
    3 Tivadar of Thorn
    3 Cataclysm



    Here's my attempt at a quickly cobbled together G/W tax list, I don't know if the lands would work, and I don't have MWS at the moment to playtest, but I imagine it would look something like this. Basically I copy/pasted the sample list in the opening post, then browsed over the U/W list in the thread also. Of the things that were taken out, I think Pale Curtain definitely might have room in the SB, maybe over Tivadar since you may not need the oomph against goblins. Another card I like is Rancor, although I couldn't find room for it without playtesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belgareth View Post
    That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
    Europe is Huge, no wonder people question Americans Geography skills

  2. #22
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The cool thing with Teeg is that he's another target for Karakas.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Yeah, this guy is killing me. Obviously he is very good, but follow me on this line of reasoning. His ability is rally good for hosing combo, so we include him. Without even getting into the design holes that opens up, we need to answer "is the splash worth it?". Well, in the past, people have splashed blue for Meddling Mage and/or Stifle. That was good enough in a combo heavy meta, but it detracted somewhat from the deck's speed and tricksie abilities to the point that most folks would agree the monowhite is generally better. So is this guy more of a hassle on combo (and possibly control) than the blue splash would be? It seems likely that the answer is squarely "no". Therefor we need to explore reasons to splash Green to see if this guy is worth it. So what other avenues does the Green splash open up then?

    Watchwolf
    Captain Sisay
    Crop Rotation
    Tarmogoyf

    I think that there is no room for Watchwolf right now. And what Captain Sisay does (makes for great long game and inevitability) is better performed by Cataclysm. Crop Rotation is quite good in this deck (with Karakas and Flagstones in particular), but usually unnecessary due to the low cost of your spells. Finally, Tarmogoyf is tempting as always, but consider that this deck has so many measures aimed at disrupting graveyards (which happen to similarly disrupt Tarmos) that there would be a considerable change required to make him work - thereby diminishing the graveyard hate to some degree. It might be a good tradeoff, but it probably is not since the first card to sub it in for is Jotun Grunt which is very similar in size, and is a good hoser for opposing Tarmos, et al.

    So is Gaddock Teeg himself going to be useful enough to warrant the Green Splash? I think probably not. One last thought, though. The ability to protect him with Karakas (and to a lesser degree, Stonecloaker) makes him pretty hard to kill. He has this going for him, and it is not a trivial advantage.

    BIG EDIT after seeing sammiel's post: Cataclysm is so much better than every other card at doing what it does that it should NEVER be relegated to the sb unless your meta is about 75% Threshold.

  4. #24

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Isao, Enlightened Bushi is something I tinkered around with in other decks in the past. Trades with most of the creatures in the format, and either bounces or regenerates if you have the land open.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belgareth View Post
    That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
    Europe is Huge, no wonder people question Americans Geography skills

  5. #25
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    When I looked at the card I immediately thought this deck. Remember that as long as you've got Karakas, you can return him to your hand when you want to resolve Cataclysm. I don't think, the lack of synergy would be unbearable.

  6. #26
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    It is going to be very hard to get the mana right, and who is willing to fry up the lands for this one guy? My crystal ball fails me here. Look at sammiel's list. It has 9 Green mana sources. The word here is "ugh". You could maneuvre it some more, but that opens you up to stuff like Blood Moon and land destruction which have never been effective against this deck in the past. And I think the guy is sb material.

    I'm interested, don't get me wrong. Just cautious.

  7. #27

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    as I said, the manabase is kind of atrocious because I can't actually do any playtesting atm, and I have never played with or against this deck, I'm just interested in it, since I have about half the cards I need for the green splash.


    I would not splash green for only Teeg, but I do see your point against Goyf, I guess I'm on the fence about his inclusion.

    *edit*

    Although I do strongly disagree about green not being more disruptive than blue. Teeg shuts off EtW and Tendrils in storm combo, Dread Return vs Breakfast and Ichorid, as well as stopping Wrath, EE, Disk, and Fact against landstill, and FoW against everyone. Maybe it's better to return cataclysm to the MD and bounce him/wait for him to eat it before you drop your bomb, but Teeg is a house.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belgareth View Post
    That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
    Europe is Huge, no wonder people question Americans Geography skills

  8. #28
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Teeg also shuts down Goblin Charbelcher, so he basically covers all the major combo's win cards and engines (Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns). Overall, rather solid in colours traditionally weak against combo.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Vial eases the problem of consistently getting Green mana.

    IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:

    - combo hate
    - a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
    - increased Legend count
    - resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)

    in exchange for

    - graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
    - a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)

    Unless your meta is dominated by Ichorid (Breakfast doesn't count because Gaddock hoses it too), I think this trade isn't even close. I'm putting the two fuckers in my main deck and making room for some Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard, right now.

    Set aside the combo matchup, where a resolved Gaddock is as close to gg as it comes. Picture the following against a control deck: Needle on Pernicious Deed, and Gaddock in play with a Karakas or Stonecloaker available. That's just plain sexy.
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  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    When I saw this card I immediately thought of D&T.
    Its a shame to play a spash in this deck but with goyf and this guy it seems worth it.
    The sinergy with karakas is great so you can keep playing cataclysm.

    Im just trowing some idea's here but how do you feel about a couple of life from the loam in this deck?
    It seems like a nice card for this deck if you want to play green.

    4 Plains
    4 Savanah
    4 Wasteland
    4 Karakas
    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    2 Windswepth Heath

    3 Isamaru
    3 Mangara
    3 goyf
    4 Serra Avenger
    3 Stonecloaker
    3 Gaddock Teeg

    3 Jitte
    2 life from the loam or crop rotation
    4 StP
    3 Mana Tithe
    3 Cataclysm
    4 Aether Vial

    Its a rough version but i think it may have potential.
    Last edited by nightbringer; 09-11-2007 at 06:03 AM.

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil
    IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:

    - combo hate
    - a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
    - increased Legend count
    - resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)
    - increased sensitivity to mana hate of all kinds
    - no reasonable way to keep the current beneficial lands (Karakas, Port, Wasteland, Flagstones) at their current levels
    - A real problem with Cataclysm


    in exchange for

    - graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
    - a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)
    I have an idea.

    Artifact
    4 Aether Vial
    3 Umezawa's Jitte

    White
    3 Isamaru
    3 Mangara
    4 Serra Avenger
    3 Stonecloaker
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Mana Tithe
    3 Cataclysm

    Gold
    3 Gaddock

    Green
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Crop Rotation

    Land
    3 Karakas
    3 Flagstones
    1 Rishidan Port
    1 Wasteland
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Savannah
    4 Temple Garden

    sb:
    4 Orim's Chant
    2 Mana Tithe
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Tivadar of Thorn
    3 Jotun Grunt
    2 Disenchant

    To balance the mana, you have to make some hard choices, but it is a little easier with Crop Rotation. And Crop Rotation is a VERY good card to be holding against opposing Wastelands. In particular, I like the way sideboarding is shaping up here.

    The combo matchup should be STRONG with this setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo
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  12. #32

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?
    That's why I said its a rough version

    Maybe it would be better to play 2 temple garden and 2 plains and a basic forest.

    The manabase would look like this then

    2 Plains
    2 temple garden
    1 Forest
    4 Savanah
    3 Wasteland
    3 Karakas
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    2 Windswepth Heath

    I don't play the port in my list because it don't realy like it in my meta.

    For the rest of the deck im not sure to play
    - 3 or 4 serra avengers opposed to 3 or 4 goyf.
    - Crop rotation or life from the loam (or both)?
    - 1 Sword of fire and ice (ive been testing this and i like it)

    Sideboard looks very nice indeed!

  13. #33
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    My current mana base is:

    2 [UNH] Plains
    4 [MM] Rishadan Port
    3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
    4 [LG] Karakas
    1 [UNH] Forest
    4 [ON] Windswept Heath
    4 [PR] Savannah


    I could only do two-fisted testing for now, but playing Goyf and Gaddock was never a problem, although a couple of times I had to rely on Aether Vial.

    It's worth noting, though, that I run Sensei's Divining Top to smooth my draws (becomes even better with the fetchlands, btw) and have moved to the SB the Cataclysms - not because I didn't like the spell, but because it was the least painful cut.
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  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I think that 8 or 9 green sources should be enough because they workt out nicely in the other version that use a splash.

    I never had problems to get them in to play like with that manabase.

    What do PhaerimmArchlord and Finn think of the adition of green by the way?

  15. #35

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Uh, Force of Will in response to vial activation?

    and are you seriously talking about making the deck 3 color? it's hard to follow your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belgareth View Post
    That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
    Europe is Huge, no wonder people question Americans Geography skills

  16. #36
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    How much are you actually using the Guildmage's abilities? Three mana is a ton. I sometimes win without even seeing three mana in this deck.

    Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). With that guy in the deck, Guildmage becomes a bad Benalish Trapper mixed with a terrible Hokori, Dust Drinker (and Hokori was terrible already).

    PS: I think "midnight oil" is code for some sort of illegal hippie pinko commie drug, which may explain PhaerimmArchlord's impaired syntax.
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  17. #37
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). .
    How does Gaddock stop Deed? Deed is

  18. #38
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Maybe the situations are different here, but this is all starting to sound eerily like the endless attempts to splash several colors into Angel Stompy that never quite panned out. This -is- a white deck.

    Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  19. #39

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    If Sphere of Resistance is a consideration among any of you, try Glowrider instead. Just FYI

  20. #40

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I play sphere in my sideboard, and not glowrider. Sphere comes down one turn earlier, and that is important in the matchups where you side it in (Combo and ********)

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