[Deck] Death and Taxes

**Kuma** · 10-03-2008 12:19 PM

Samurai of the Pale Curtain is probably the most underrated card in the deck. He eats goblins and mongeese all day, stops Bridges from Below from triggering, removes Ichorids from the game, hurts Survival decks, sometimes shrinks goyfs and makes threshold a little harder to achieve. A must for the Ichorid matchup and useful vs Goblins and Thresh.

Knight of the Meadowgrain is an option, but an inferior one. I'd rather have Knight of the Holy Nimbus, and I don't even run him.

**Finn** · 10-03-2008 02:39 PM

It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?

Also, like with all the other hosers in this deck, taking a small sample size and saying that such and such a creature is subpar is pretty useless. I mean this for the tried and true ones only here. Since most of the critters ever tried in this deck have been really good at some times, and something like a vanilla at others, you just have to stick to what works in your meta. I bet the new knight could be good against stuff that kills your lands. But is that more common than graveyard decks?

**Pienterekaak** · 10-03-2008 07:13 PM

your right, i talked alot with a some friends of mine, and epochasite is just a big beater, samurai is good.
Personally i think we need 2 drops. my favorite deck to play, is my casual soldier deck, i play it for years now and improved it along the way. My soldier deck plays almost the same as this deck, relying on combat tricks to win. It could play defencive with these tricks, but also had a aggo mode in case that was needed. With alot of 3 drops and trick cards, we dont have that. thats why i think some good 2 drops are neceserry.

Also, i want to enter the Dutch open Championships with this deck. and i expect alot of combo thanks to addie (Ad Nauseam). thats why i play glowriders and knight of mediograin main. (instead of oblivion rings) so i am thinking of playing this list:

// Lands
11 [9E] Plains (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance

and 4 more sideboard cards. which im not sure about yet, does anyone have a good idea for that?

btw :) goblin matchup is very good, played 5-1 against it yesterday.

**Pienterekaak** · 10-06-2008 10:51 AM

What about this sideboard card:

Wheel of Sun and Moon

it improves:
Solidarity
TES
Painters combo
ichorid
aggro loam
Landstill
Thresh
reanimator
+ any other mill or graveyard based deck

against alot of these matches, cataclysm can be boarded out for wheel.

**loop** · 10-06-2008 12:31 PM

Judging from the list of match ups you think this card will affect, I'm not sure you've given this a lot of thought.
Let's go over it step by step.

Solidarity/Painter's combo: Strictly worse than True Believer, which is already meh at best. You don't hurt their setup, you just cut them off their wincon... which means they'll just have to bounce/REB it once they're ready to win. Terrible.

Ichorid: You may steal a game just thanks to the WTF?! effect and your opponent having sideboarded for another hate piece, but once your opponent knows what to expect it won't help you much. Cabal Therapy or Ray of Revelation (or Chain of vapor?) will take care of this. Meh.

TES: .... I suppose this does cut them off IGG. Tough break. Now they'll just have to Diminishing Returns (or Ad Nauseam?) ftw. Useless.

Loam: Maybe the one that makes the most sense out of your list... but Loam has so many ways to handle this, I doubt it'll hurt them that much. Then again, I don't play loam, so what do I know. Still, strictly worse than any other GY hate?

Reanimator: I don't know reanimator. Still, unless I'm mistaken they only need 1 beater, so turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard in resp should circumvent this?

Landstill/Thresh: What? Strictly worse than Crypt, which already sucks terribly against Thresh. And... yeah, you're preventing Landstill from recurring Factories if they do run Crucible. Still, pretty useless.

I'm not sure about every MU but it really seems terrible. Besides, if you're dedicating sideboard slots to GY hate (which most D&T lists don't do), WHY would you play this over anything else? Crypt and Relic make a ton more sense.

**urdjur** · 10-10-2008 10:46 AM

I have a slightly more favorable verdict on Wheel. I run it as a one-of in my ETutor list, but I wouldn't recommend it in straight D&T. Relic of Progenitus is the more versatile GY hate, and I run 2 of those myself.

Wheel is better when it's important to stop things going to the GY at all, but it's worse if you actually care what's in it. For example:
*Ichorid's zombie token generation
*Affinity's modular mechanic and Disciple
*Countryside Crusher's growing in Aggro-Loam

It also SHUTS DOWN LOAM. Completely. Yes, they can wish for an answer or whatever, but making them spend wishes on hate is a good thing since they also use wishes for business and keeping their deck from falling apart.

It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?

I just wanted to comment quickly on this too. I've tried it in a D&T-ish variant and I'm pretty happy with it. I run 3x ETutor + 1x Canonist in the main, with the extra copies in the board.

It adds a little bit in the Thresh MU, but most importantly (besides anti-Storm of course), it puts those fast tempo decks more on par with the vial white weenie plan. For example, Eva Green can't Dark Ritual in to a turn 2 Tombstalker after having robbed you of StP etc.

So basically it slows down other decks just enough for you to deal with them as you had planned. I love it, and the fact that you can play around it pretty well yourself (with Vial, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker etc).

And it's not to be underestimated against Painter when you run 4x StP as well. Since you run StP, Painter is forced to play Grindstone first and then servant. Then, they must mill you on their turn. Now, if they are forced to REB Wheel first, you can StP servant in response.

I think all this makes it worth 1 SB slot if you play with tutors. Otherwise, just go with Relic - it's awesome.

**leander?** · 10-14-2008 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pienterekaak

Also, I want to enter the Dutch open Championships with this deck, and I expect a lot of combo thanks to Ad Nauseam. Thats why I play glowriders.

Why dont just run some true believers then? Unlike glowrider, they dont hurt you at all and he is even a turn faster (Turn 3 answer to combo wont give you such a big chance, you know). The only downside to believer is that it easier to bounce and that it doesnt stop EtW. But since TES has acces to ADN, EtW isnt played that much anymore becouse you will be able to win with tendrill more often. And as I said, Glowrider's cmc makes it way less impressive for TES.

Another point: Doesnt Grunt work crappy together with Samurai? I'd say play Grunt ór Samuarai, but both seems a bit shaky..

**Kuma** · 10-14-2008 07:06 PM

A bit, which is why you keep one of them in the sideboard and only side it in when you're playing a deck that puts a lot of cards in the graveyard, or when you really need to affect the graveyard.

**Pienterekaak** · 10-15-2008 06:01 AM

well my choise for glowriders was indeed becouse TB doesnt really do anything. it almost does nothing against non storm combo decks, becouse all the combo decks have maindeck answer to the guy (with wishes).
Glowrider is harder to get rid of (since they need to dig for answers, and glowrider prevents that) and is decent against other decks (and as a free bonus, it brings the tax back in death and taxes :p). i havnt got any trouble from it myself untill now. so ill keep testing it. only had it against me once, and then i just use stonecloacker to put it back in my hand again at EOT and do my thing next turn. (also, depending on the situation, it can be a good creature after clysm)

and yes, grunt and samurai dont work that well together. thats why i only run 2 of each, in my opinion you cant run more than 2 grunts main, even without samurai on the board i had a hard time maintaining them, since almost nothing goes to my graveyard. so are you suggesting to take 2 grunts out (since samurai can help at game 1 vs combo) and put those to the side?
and how many samurai should i play main then, couse they are bad with flagstones too.

btw, thank you for your opinion about the deck, i could really use any advise to make my list stronger.

**Kuma** · 10-15-2008 10:27 AM

The Samurai/Flagstones interaction isn't a big deal, especially since Cataclysm has moved to the sideboard in most lists. The rare game where you're stuck with an extra Flagstones in your hand because of SotPC isn't worth running an inferior creature. Besides, you can always Flickerwisp or Stonecloaker the SotPC if you're desperate.

**chmoddity** · 10-22-2008 12:29 PM

Hey, you guys know the trick you can do by Vialing in a Flickerwisp in response to the comes-into-play effect of Oblivion Ring, right?

Anyway, does that work when you play a Flickerwisp and then Vial in a Stonecloaker in response to it's remove-from-game ability? Can we keep the permanent out of the game this way?

**Kuma** · 10-22-2008 01:43 PM

No, because Flickerwisp's ability doesn't care if Flickerwisp is still in play when it resolves.

**whitescorpion** · 10-23-2008 02:29 PM

Maybe a little off topic. But I was wondering if anyone has ever considered Guardian of the Guildpact as a pretty much 100% surefire way of pushing through damage?

slap a jitte on this thing and it's gg! :)

but seriously maybe 1/2 tested in the side. it's like the only (non-flying) creature that never fears to attack ito a goyf

**porcupinetreeman** · 10-23-2008 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by whitescorpion

Maybe a little off topic. But I was wondering if anyone has ever considered Guardian of the Guildpact as a pretty much 100% surefire way of pushing through damage?

slap a jitte on this thing and it's gg! :)

but seriously maybe 1/2 tested in the side. it's like the only (non-flying) creature that never fears to attack ito a goyf

At four mana I don't think he will see play.

I was wondering if D+T should be more of a WG deck. I've been tinkering around with it and it shines with Teeg and Goyf.

// Lands
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rishadan Port
1 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Figure of Destiny

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

//SB
3 Cataclysm
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant

The deck shines with three different maindeck legendary creatures. Cataclysms had to come out because of the poor synergy with Teeg. FOD worked out really good for vial at 1.

Mana Tithe maindeck would be really good, but I don't know how I would fit it in.

**urdjur** · 10-26-2008 02:18 PM

I've been working on improving the Landstill and combo MU and I think I've finally found a list I'm happy with. It features two things that have been discussed before without really reaching a consencus: Wayfarer and Tutor.

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

You know how Aether Vial is what makes the Landstill MU winnable? Well, Weathered Wayfarer does pretty much the same thing. It too brings in land removal or threat under standstill while thwarting counters. Wayfarer also lets us run juicy 1-ofs like Maze of Ith to help against other MUs, and works extremely well with the single Crucible in the ETutor (for instance sac Flagstones to Dust Bowl -> fetch Mistveil Plains + repeat to draw out plains; replay horizon canopy to draw cards etc).

Epochrasite is such a great 1-of when you play 4x Vial + 4x Flickerwisp + 3x Tutor in the main. He's a tough threat to deal with - only StP works, and there's always the Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Recurring the singleton Mishra (through crucible or grunt/mistveil + wayfarer) also spells trouble for control decks.

The ETutor toolbox gives you game 1 options against every deck in the field:
*Ethersworn Canonist: Fetch as soon as you realize you're playing against storm combo. Good against Eva Green, Thresh and Landstill too, to name a few (though hardly fetch worthy in these MUs).
*Runed Halo: Covers A LOT! Combo win cons (belcher, tendrils, grindstone etc), scepter/chant lock, Pro:W or shrouded dudes like Troll Ascetic, expected discard/burn - or just use it to take out a creature such as Tarmogoyf.
*Umezawa's Jitte: Crucial against burn game 1, but useful against almost anything. Don't expect this to help much games 2-3 against burn though (they almost certainly have SB artifact hate). CoP: Red however, will.
*Aura of Silence: Very good against Deed, Disk and to a lesser extent Explosives. Silver bullet game 1 against enchantress/affinity/stax. Also very useful to just remove something, like Counterbalance or Needle.
*Crucible of Worlds: Good against LD to protect Karakas, but just generally neat with Wayfarer and the land toolbox.
*Ghostly Prison: Game 1 silver bullet against Ichorid! As always, they can steal games if they get 20+ power on the board turn 1-2, but all Ichorid players know that GP/Propaganda is bad news game 1 (that's why Ray of Revelation comes in games 2-3, but then you have more hate). Of course, GP is good against almost every aggro deck - often even more useful than Cataclysm. Also a silver bullet against Empty the Warrens.
*Oblivion Ring: Not really needed against any deck, but not really bad against any deck either (except perhaps burn). Against Landstill, this and Aura of Silence are your only game 1 outs to Humility (since it thwarts Mangara). Anyway, too good not to include since you can 2-for-1 it with Flickerwisp.

The sideboard features Boseiju (!) together with Cataclysm, Abolish and Mine Excavation - all of these hate on Landstill, but of course have lots of uses in other MUs as well. I side in Mine Excavation in maybe 50% of all matches, since opponents always side in art/ench hate if they can. This also makes me prefer Crypt over Relic, since I can recur it. Wheel is a wicked card against anything with Dredge, and is good against the Modular mechanic in affinity too (it's much like a stronger SotPC that works with ETutor/Excavation).

I'm extremely happy with this deck now, even its performance against Landstill, combo and ichorid. It's all about tweaking it to your specific meta, and it will run like a well-oiled machine. Kudos to Finn and all you others who keep this archetype alive.

P.S. If you think this list is very different from the standard version, it really isn't. For example, instead of running 3x Oblivion Ring, I run
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Maze of Ith

Instead of 3x Cataclysm main deck, I run these tutor targets for mass permanent control, and keep the clysms in the board:
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence

Instead of Stonecloaker and SotPC, I have Ghostly Prison for Ichorid hate (with more hate in the SB), and Wayfarer to give me more effective Karakas slots to compensate for Stonecloaker's bouncing etc. The added benefit of running tutors is that you get more versatility without loosing consistency. But it makes an already complex deck even harder to play since you now have two toolboxes to consider as well...

**Maëlig** · 10-26-2008 04:13 PM

Good to see your ideas incorporated in a D&T shell, urdjur. This list looks very interesting and refreshing.
I have also been advocating for the inclusion of wayfarer for a while now. He helps in problematic MU (great against landstill for eg) and adds alot of versatility to the deck.
I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.
Sticking with your concepts, I would still make a few comments on your list.
I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial). Other than that, you land toolbox seems fine (I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).
You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes. Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.
Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).
Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).
About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB. You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.
Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?

**urdjur** · 10-26-2008 09:10 PM

Many good questions! I have rationales for them all, but YMMV. Here goes:

I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.

You're right, but look more closely:
*All the MD silver bullets are directed towards decks that do NOT run counters.
*The cards that DO work against counters (Vial, Wayfarer) are run in redundant copies.
*The silver bullets are redundant. I wouldn't actually play ETutor against Threshold if it can be helped, but I wouldn't be unhappy to just draw AoS (against counter/top), ORing, Runed Halo etc. just as I wouldn't mind to draw an StP - it's all good Tarmogoyf hate.
*The additional SB silver bullets, again, are against decks that can't handle them. For example, Burn will not handle CoP:Red 90% of the time, and goblins have a hard time at it too. You can't rely on just silver bullets in the SB, because it only works against a few decks - but against those, it is a bye. Against the others, you need redundancy.

I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial).

That would require you to be on the play, play T1 wasteland+vial, and then follow up with Wayfarer. The thing is, T1 vial in itself is very bad for landstill, so that sounds like win more. It's a neat 3 card combo when it happens, but is it worth giving up 3 more white sources?

I don't fear landstill hitting 2 mana, I fear them hitting 4 mana. Dustbowl is actually stronger than Wasteland, not only because all your lands turn into wastelands, but because you can use it with Flagstones for free. The 1x Wasteland is run for redundancy so I can ignore Pithing Needle on Dustbowl. It also gives the option to destroy a land early, but I'd really prefer to hit 3-4 mana anyway so I can do a recursive lock.

(I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).

It's not so hot in your hand, true, but tutoring for it with Flagstones (sacced to Dustbowl) makes the CIPT moot. It's a bit mana intensive to use for recursion, but I like to have it there. I'm a bit undecided though: when I take it out, I miss it. When I put it in, I sometimes grone over having it as my only white source in my opening hand.

You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes.

T1 Chalice@1 when I'm on the draw sucks. On the play, I can either tutor for Aura of Silence in response, or drop T1 Vial. At least, I have 5 3cc outs to Chalice in the main, meaning it slows me down but doesn't kill me.

EE@1 is often a 2-for-1. I have no reason to drop 2 Vials, or 2 Isamarus, and the latter can be save with Karakas. But yeah, killing Vial + Wayfarer on T3 does happen. EE@2 can be seriously delayed by Aura of Silence, backing up with land destruction in the late game. I've also taken care to spread out the cc's in the deck, so that there are about 10 permanents @1,2,3 each, to minimize EE damage.

Still, all this considered, I wouldn't call it a "major bane".

Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.

Having a nice spread among creature cc's is important to optimize Vial's efficiency. Also, Isamaru is almost as good against control with Karakas as Epochrasite is. The real problem however would be supporting 4x Epochrasite. One as a tutor target is perfect with 8 "outs" to grow him. Running 4 would be like running 4 force of will in a deck with 8 other blue cards - he'd be a 1/1 for 2 most of the time. I almost never have that problem now. If I have Vial/Wisp, I fetch or play him. If I don't, I save the tutor for something else.

It could work with Epochrasite #2 in the sideboard to bring in with the clysms though. That would probably be supported.

Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).

I am, that's true, but in the MUs where that particular GY-hate is relevant (Landstill and Ichorid mostly), I have taken steps to compensate. Playing 3 grunts MD means that I'll occasionally sit with 2 unplayable threats against some decks. Adding a singleton Stonecloaker would probably be better, but what to take out for it? I find nothing I'm willing to ditch for him.

Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).

How I've anguished over the correct number of cloakers/wisps! They are somewhat overlapping, but both have specific strength/weaknesses depending on what else you run. Here's the gist:
*Epochrasite = focus on wisps. Wisp+Epochrasite is good even without Vial, and Stonecloaker + Epochrasite is just bad, unless you have vial@2 (not likely) and opponent is using StP.
*Ethersworn Canonist = focus on wisps. As Finn observed, Canonist halves the effectiveness of Stonecloaker. Playing that creature again is all you can do the next round if Canonist is in play. Also, Vialing in Wisp targeting your own Canonist lets you bypass him momentarily, which can set your opponent's calculations way off :)
*Optimizing ORing = focus on wisps: If you run lots of ORings or have ETutor, you can more often 2-for-1 your opponent with it if you run the maximum number of wisps.
*Protecting non-creature permanents = focus on wisps: If you rely on non-creature permanents (like ETutor decks do), Vial+Flickerwisp can protect them from spot removal, wheras Stonecloaker can't.

however,

*Optimizing Mangara = focus on cloakers: Stonecloaker doesn't need Vial to save Mangara when you don't have Karakas (this is less important when you run Wayfarer).
*Protect creature permanents = focus on cloakers: Same rational here.
*You need the graveyard hate = focus on cloakers: Obviously.

So there you have it. The final consideration is also that Stonecloaker can target Flickerwisp and vice versa! So if you run 4 Flickerwisp and think that's just grand, you might as well run 1-2x Stonecloaker too, just because it's a good card that might let you reuse a wisp effect. And with a cloaker in play, you could wisp it and put the wisp back in your hand end of turn etc. I'd never cut a wisp for stonecloaker in this particular list however. (Tangent: I also think running 3 cloakers is pretty dangerous unless you have, say, at least 24 creatures - none of which you dislike picking up to your hand).

Bottom line: I wouldn't mind running 1-2 Stonecloakers, but I can't find the room.

About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB.

Runed Halo affects every deck. It's even broader than StP, and there's no argument to not have it MD... Aura of Silence - true, there might be an occasional deck that includes no artifacts or enchantments, but I think they are about as rare as MUs where StP is useless. Ghostly Prison is good against pretty much every deck that runs 16+ creatures (including some Threshold builds), and works against EtW (where StP doesn't help) and gives me a game 1 against Ichorid (but on its own it wouldn't help games 2-3) - all these things qualifies for 1 MD slot I think.

You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.

Someone will probably smack me for this, but I've tried Pithing Needle and I'm unimpressed. It's a great card for many other decks - it's Trinket Mage's #1 trinket. But mono white has so many better ways to handle permanents - it's what we do best after all.

Pithing Needle is expected and almost all decks can handle artifacts game one. And you know it's only getting worse games 2-3, because they WILL board in artifact removal. There's also the problem of running all the best Pithing targets yourself! Vial? Wasteland? Mishra? And you also have to anticipate the problem. What if you pithe Deed, and he drops EE instead? Then it would have been lots better to drop Aura of Silence instead - a much tougher card to deal with.

Pithing Needle belongs in a deck that doesn't have better SB answers, doesn't risk pithing itself and doesn't advertise lots of artifacts game 1. This deck doesn't fit that bill.

Relic vs. Crypt is a tough choice. As long as you run Mine Excavation, I'd go with Crypt, mostly since you have so many ways to handle Tarmogoyf already.

Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?

I don't know if the other D&T player's have noticed, but when you run 4x Vial and 3x ORing + Jitte etc, people board in Krosan Grip and friends. I think it's a mistake to run additional copies of enchantments/artifacts in the board, when there's an instant/sorcery that will probably do just as well.

The only thing ORing has on Abolish is the possibility for creature spot removal. This is not necessary since the MD features:
4x StP
3x Mangara
1x Maze of Ith (+3 Wayfarer)
1x Oblivion Ring (+3 Enlightened Tutor)
+flickerwisp (against dreadnought), bouncable blockers (isamaru), non-targeted control (runed halo), mass creature control (ghostly prison, jitte + clysm SB) and several 4/4s or flying vigilant 3/3s to deal with smaller dudes.

Abolish, otoh, is an instant that can - for instance - kill scepter/chant lock or equipment on equipping, AND can be used with Boseiju if hard cast, OR cast turn 0 against various shenanigans. I think it's a really strong complement to mangara and ORing/AoS.

Phew, that took a long while to write, but I'm happy that I had to put my thoughts down in words. Basically, I wouldn't mind fitting Stonecloaker in the main somewhere, but I'm not really sure what to cut. I'm pretty fine without him though.

**Maëlig** · 10-27-2008 09:05 AM