[Deck] Death and Taxes

[georgjorge]

Few combo lists run Empty the Warrens anymore, either sideboard or mainboard. The reason is that they use Ad Nauseam or Doomsday, and those decks don't want to pass the turn at two or three life, even with twenty Goblins in play. Also, for the nth time, the fact that an opponent can get rid of a card somehow doesn't make it bad (because that would apply to EVERY CARD OUT THERE).

[Maëlig]

Also, for the nth time, the fact that an opponent can get rid of a card somehow doesn't make it bad (because that would apply to EVERY CARD OUT THERE).

Yes it does. There is a key difference between true believer and runed halo on the one side and canonist, chant and glowrider on the other, which makes the latter category invaluably better. True believer and runed halo don’t prevent combo from going off, it just stops the kill. The only problem is that once combo HAS gone off, it usually has at its disposition a number of options to get rid of this (not to mention the alternate win cons). It might help against belcher or spanish inquisition, but not much else. My point is, your best chance against combo is not to block off its kill conditions, but to prevent (read: delay) it from going off.

[Finn]

Some thoughts on this topic:

1. I have recently been playing a version that pretends Goblins does not exist. It has 4x Canonist, 4x Chant, and 3x Glowrider in the side. I have been testing against all the Tendrils combo decks, and here is my initial finding. Orim's Chant sux if the opponent is playing Duress. However, many of them prefer Orim's Chant instead of Duress. If the opponent is doing that, your odds are significantly better.

In all Tendrils games, g1 is close to an autoloss. You have to get pretty darned lucky, so your build HAS to win games 2 and 3 consistently to ever get a bonafide good matchup against combo. Let me spoil the suspense for you. It will never happen in a monowhite deck no matter what Jack Elgin may ever claim.

With the build I described (having that significant combo defense in the board) I still only take about half of the matches against quality opponents playing the top Tendrils combos. Any two of Canonist, Chant, and Glowrider in the same game should pretty much spell victory. But you have to draw them and that is that.

2. Runed Halo is NOT gigantically effective against combo. It is, however, generally a pain in the ass. True Believer never was not a proper combo hoser either. But we put that card in the main because it was an attacker. But much more importantly, because it was a generalist. As mediocre is he was in most matchups, he always did something, and he typically bought a few turns on the key ones. That is why I would never put a card like that in the sb. You need real hosers in the board. The deck is full of generally annoying stuff that can attack. If you are arguing that Runed Halo is generally good, it does not belong in the sb. It goes in the main.

[Pienterekaak]

I am going to try a build with 2 glowrider and 3 canonist main. to see how much it affects me, and how much it disrubs my opponent. It would certainly give me alot more chance vs combo.
canonist also slows down decks,
aggro elf can only play 1 elf each turn.. i can handle that with mangara :),
thresh etc gets a hard time cantripping,
burn can only burn me once a turn (ofcourse, canonist gets a burn first..),
combo really hates that card
and i can dodge it with vial :)
and untill now i rarely play more than 1 spell during a turn. so i think its worth a try. Also ill test chalise in side.

[Forbiddian]

I thought I would mention this, because people are flooding our thread with Death and Taxes themed suggestions (Karakous, Mangara, Stonecloaker even, Isamaru, etc.) based on Wayfarer, alone.

Sorry this is one of those, "Here's a suggestion, but I didn't playtest it or anything." suggestions, but you seem light on one-drops and DnT is infinitely better with Karakous, so it's probably worth trying.

Without Wasteland, it won't be as good, but you still run Cataclysm, right?

[Maëlig]

@ Forbiddian : you're absolutely right to mention wayfarer. It's one of those cards that's been considered almost since the beginning, but that's been dismissed for lack of aggressivity or combat tricks. If you ask me, the possibility of establishing a wasteland soft-lock (as well as fetching karakas when needed and to a lesser extent possible toolbox cards such as maze and factory) is well worth that lost of aggressivity. This is especially true since it helps alot in problematic MUs (intuition-control, landstill). But of course, you need an appropriate build. It first means replacing port by wasteland (port-lock doesn't work as well as waste-lock, surprisingly...), which might also push you to move cataclysm to the SB. You should also adapt you manabase accordingly, I play this (same total number of lands, although maze doesn't produce mana) :
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
Next step : play Lin...

[Pienterekaak]

Btw, i was wondering, why doesnt D&T play top with fetchlands to make it more consistent? or any fetchland at all?
I had to board out cataclysm alot, so i moved to my side as a 2 off now. Thus i dont need that much lands anymore. Im also cutting flagstones, becouse MUC is very populair here these days, and it plays 4 back to basics main.

[Ceridan]

Btw, i was wondering, why doesnt D&T play top with fetchlands to make it more consistent? or any fetchland at all?
I had to board out cataclysm alot, so i moved to my side as a 2 off now. Thus i dont need that much lands anymore. Im also cutting flagstones, becouse MUC is very populair here these days, and it plays 4 back to basics main.

One of the best things about DaT is it´s stabile mana-base. Fetch makes you vulnerable against stifle etc. To have a stabile mana-base is also vital if you are planning on running Cataclysm.

[Pienterekaak]

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?

[Ceridan]

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?

Many of the cards in DaT is cc3 and WW, this makes the mana-base very important since we don´t have any diggers like Brainstorm or Top.

How many stifles people run is a meta question. It seems like the popularity is rising again.

[Pienterekaak]

true, but i wonder how much my manabase will be disturbed by stifles, since i play alot of other tricks which are stifable. and im thinking of 6 fetch land, which still gives me non fetch 15 lands. and like you sad, my spells are pretty cheap, and i have vial. i think its worth testing, since im going to try Sensei’s Divining Top

[Maëlig]

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?

If he does, you probably won't get to play mangara until a while anyways. Also, it'll set you back on tempo. Not to mention stiflying vial isn't usually a great play.
I don't really see the point in adding fetches without a splash, though going Wb or Wg might justify the inclusion of top.

[Kuma]

Adding Fetches + Top seems like an interesting idea to revisit, but I can't think what to cut for Top. I can see this helping in the Thresh matchup to give us the edge we need to overcome the stalemate we often end up in. At the same time, we're opening ourselves up to Armageddon and Blood Moon. Honestly, we're already packed pretty tight, and I don't think adding Top + Fetches is going to improve the overall package, but I could be wrong...

[Pienterekaak]

well i dont know either :) thats why im going to try to find out how much it does. the idea is, that its quite a allround deck, so is thresh, but thresh is good becouse of its cantrips, its ability to find answers to everything. if this would work out good, it might make D&T more consistent

[Enigma]

Hi guys,

There's a D&T player in my metagame who is pretty good. I play aggro-control and was questionning myself what's good against him. Sure, mass removal can be good, as removales for flyings, but what else?

If you feel like not wanting to give tips about how to fight your deck, I would understand.

PM

[Kuma]

Depends on what kind of aggro-control you're playing. Non-red, non-tempo Thresh lists tend to work best against D&T. Counterbalance is probably your best weapon against D&T, followed by Engineered Explosives. Engineered Explosives at two can be devestating against D&T, but it's best to wait until you can play and use it in one turn, or else they might O-Ring or Flickerwisp it.

Aggro Loam and Dreadstill aren't the best choices to beat D&T, especially Aggro Loam. D&T runs too many basics, too many protection from red creatures, too much graveyard hate, and too much spot removal.

I have no idea how good Team America is vs D&T. Never had that matchup.

Chalice at one is decent, and Chalice at two is tough for D&T to work around. But neither of these cards are game-breaking.

That's the thing about D&T. There isn't an easy way for aggro-control to shut it out. My games vs aggro control tend to last a long time, often until the end of the round.

The matchups are very close, but winnable for either side. You have to play very tight to get the edge, and the game usually goes to the better player.

[CleverPetriDish]

Has anyone thought of trying out black again with Tidehollow Sculler? It has good interactions with many parts of the deck.

[Pienterekaak]

No offence, but in what way does it interact with the deck then?
if i bounce it, he gets his card back..

edit: ahh i see, come into play ability on stack, then bounce it, still.. seems like alot of trouble to get 1 card out of the hand of my opponent (since to play and bounce i need atleast 5 mana, or vial @3 + black splash)

[CleverPetriDish]

It's exactly the same thing we have been doing with Oblivion Ring. On its own, it is a fine card. Against the combo matchups, he provides reliable disruption piggybacked on a 2/2 body for game 1. After all, what creature removal does combo pack in their main? But if you get the right stuff going on, it is a 2-for-1 for every Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp you combine it with.

[Curby]

Some thoughts on this topic:

1. I have recently been playing a version that pretends Goblins does not exist. It has 4x Canonist, 4x Chant, and 3x Glowrider in the side.
...

With the build I described (having that significant combo defense in the board) I still only take about half of the matches against quality opponents playing the top Tendrils combos.

In short, we only get to 50% with 11/15 sideboard cards being dedicated to combo. If I'm not expecting much combo in a given meta, I could free up a ton of space for additional hate against landstill, burn, etc. and clinch the victory against decent matchups. For this type of meta, what sideboard changes would you consider? I really like Hokori, and would likely add the fourth copy of some of the 3-ofs currently in the main, esp. Cataclysm. In my somewhat casual meta, getting rid of their land is often worth the game. Counter to what a lot of people have been attempting, I very seldomly side out Cat, and very often bring in the 4th. I wonder if it's just that I see fewer Goyfs and 'Stalkers, or am I playing the deck wrong?

P.S. I know I'm playing the deck wrong. I was holding Mangara and two Plains with an untapped Vial at 3 and I let him take Mangara with a Thoughtseize. Stupid stupid stupid...

P.P.S.: Wisping their Figures of Destiny is kinda fun.