[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Finn]

Kirby, you make a pretty good point about just letting the combo matchup go. I have to say that Glowriders are certainly not dedicated to combo, though. But if we were to just cede this one, what sorts of things would you replace those spots with?

[Maëlig]

I'm currently fooling around with what is probably a poor concept, but you never know until you've tried, right?
The idea is to try to fit meekstone in D&T. It's a card I've always loved but never quite managed to make use of it in legacy. I'm sure it has potential in the current meta though, against all the noughts, goyfs and stalkers running around.
I quickly decided to go with the rebels and taxes (my version of D&T featuring wayfarer and Lin Sivvi) rather than the classic shell, for it has more synergies and doesn't feature flickerwisp and stonecloaker which don't go well with meekstone.
Here's a first shot:
// Lands
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [ON] Whipcorder

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [6E] Meekstone
3 [SHM] Niveous Wisps

Some explanations.
First of all, I have to point out that this is largely untested. I'm just throwing an idea to think about, it might very well turn out not to work great. I don't pretend to have achieved anything here, don't get me wrong.
I've removed isamaru and grunt from the deck. This will seem like an heresy to many of you, but I think they are the right cuts. The former isn't so much needed since the deck as a whole isn't so aggro-ish, and I already have quite alot of 1cc spells. The latter is doubly anti-synergic with meekstone: it stays tapped under it obviously, but it also partly holds the same role (handling goyfs and stalkers). I'm a bit worried that those cuts make the number of threats in the deck too low, though.
This made space to fit a single whipcorder fetchable with Lin (which I've also upped to 4, since it is the key card of the deck and has a giant "kill me" sign on top of its head) to tap creatures under meekstone. You'll also notice the niveous wisps which can at worst be cycled eot on one of our creatures if you have no other target. What I like about this concept is that just as the rebel and land engines, no cards are dead on their own (except for meekstone agaisnt certain decks obviously). On the other hand, it is largely a metagame guess which might turn out to be a bad one (basically, if your opponent isn't playing aggro-control).

Thoughts and comments?

[chmoddity]

So the control matchup is probably improved by these changes. But are you actually beating Landstill? Are there any other control decks you are beating with this design? There seem to be only the angels and knights to attack with. Everything else is a support card. I dunno, it just looks like it is very slow.

Also, I am used to randomly screwing opponents who use their graveyards. You don't get any of that here. Whatever the benefits, I am pretty sure you are not going to improve the majority of matchups.

But you were talking about Meekstone. If I were using it I would have Goldmeadow Harrier instead of Niveous Wisps.

[Curby]

Kirby, you make a pretty good point about just letting the combo matchup go. I have to say that Glowriders are certainly not dedicated to combo, though. But if we were to just cede this one, what sorts of things would you replace those spots with?

I'd round out the sets of

Grunt
Samurai
Cataclysm
Oblivion Ring

and probably keep trying Hokori. Kataki might be good in an Artifact-heavy meta.

As we've said, this deck is very customizable to any given meta, so uses for the extra slots will vary. My main interest is keeping aggro down and improving control matchups. I'm open to suggestions!

Btw, Canonist should also do quite well against Tribal decks (Gobs! Elves! Merfs!) that like to draw and cast a ton of critters a turn. Gobs gets around this the easiest, and merfs have Vial, but you hamstring their countermagic when they want to cast a threat. With the option of 4 Cataclysms in the deck though, I'm not sure that critter swarms are quite so dangerous, but again, the side is all about making MUs better. (I guess what I'm saying here is that Canonist might find uses aside from anti-combo.)

[Finn]

Actually, I am about ready to shelve my Tivadars in favor of Glowriders permanently. Glowrider is just useful in such a wide range of matches where Tivadar, although a bomb, only works in that one. And Gobs just aren't as popular as they were. If that works out then the combo matches could be decent. You have to be foolish to take a monowhite deck like this into a combo dominated meta, but I don't mind using 8 slots to make it winnable against the occasional opponent. For something like Chicago, this would almost certainly be my plan.

[Charlatan]

@ Finn:
I'm a new member of this forum, and I love your deck. Congratulations.
Well, and about combo: I've win some matches against combo decks using 4x Ethersworn Canonist and 4x Orim's Chant.

It's no an ease match, but you still having a chance to win.
And as you were talking, there is glowrinder to help. I wouldn't care use 10 sb's slots for combo, because the deck has very good matches against aggro-control/aggro decks.

Ty you all!!

[CaptShetz]

I'm also new to these forums, but I am starting to break into using D&T. I ran it in a local 20 man and came out on top. Now I want to see D&T at the top at GP: Chicago... even if it's not me. :)

I'm a bit reluctant to completely pitch my SB plan against combo. Yes, 11 of my SB cards come in against combo, and it is my worst MU (4 Canonist, 4 Chant [I'm running Abeyance out of necessity atm], 3 Glowrider). But, I've also won combo MUs on the back of this disruption. With some added luck, I've won entire matches against things like CRET Belcher.

Also, I think 4 Canonist is something we should consider boarding in for the burn MU. I know some people seem to think they are only good in the combo MU, but I've seen too many games end with triple bolt or a bolt into fireblast or something like that, and a turn or two can make the difference (especially if I am able to swords a Grunt or something). The Glowriders are also useful against Burn (and other aggro-control and control decks).

So really, the only dedicated slot for combo is the 4 Orim's Chant. I don't think that is so bad.

Now, the other 4 cards for the SB seem pretty obvious, rounding out the playsets of Oblivion Ring, Samurai, and Grunt (unless you don't maindeck Cataclysm).

[georgjorge]

I don't know how often you use Oblivion Ring on big creatures, but if it's often, maybe this card could be considered...

Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

Vial-able and resuable, but a turn slower. Should be pretty good against Aggro Loam, Dreadstill, Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Team America, and Goyfs or 'Stalkers in general. If your early game is already VERY good, you might even cut a Swords for one of those...

Also, the new card from Conflux

Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1
for each land card in your graveyard.
Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains:
Search your library for a land card,
put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

might be worth a green splash since I saw some lists using Weathered Wayfarer, and this gives you the effect unconditionally. You'd use fetchlands anyway to at least make it 3/3 when it enters play, and have it grow each turn.

[Tanarin]

Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1
for each land card in your graveyard.
Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains:
Search your library for a land card,
put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

might be worth a green splash since I saw some lists using Weathered Wayfarer, and this gives you the effect unconditionally. You'd use fetchlands anyway to at least make it 3/3 when it enters play, and have it grow each turn.

Hmm...well plays well with Flagstones, that's for sure, though it doesn't play well if you run SotPC. If you run Teeg though, that means you probably lose Cataclysm due to that interaction. I guess if you ran this route, maybe run Goyf as an additional beater.

I don't know about D&T running it to TBH. If anything I could see this n some sort of new Aggro Loam variant if anything.

[Barook]

Hmm...well plays well with Flagstones,

Except that Flagstones is neither a Plains nor a Forest...

[Tanarin]

Except that Flagstones is neither a Plains nor a Forest...

I never said you would sac it to the card, but you could definitely fetch for it depending on what you have on board already.

[CaptShetz]

I never said you would sac it to the card, but you could definitely fetch for it depending on what you have on board already.

Flagstones also plays well with the Knight if you run x4, since you can double sac them to the legendary rule and give your guy +2/+2.

I am a bit leery of adding him to D&T though, since D&T typically strives to remove as much GY as possible (MD Samurai and Grunts, for example).

I also don't think Intrepid Hero is very good. I can see drawing him and needing the removal NOW, not next turn (and that is assuming he survives). How is he better than Mangara? He only kills big creatures, Mangara can remove anything from the game, and the deck is built around abusing Mangara. I don't see the same potential in Intrepid Hero.

[uberfrank]

It might not be the right deck to fit that trick because of mono white and all, but Tidehollow Sculler has some crazy interaction with getting bounced/flickered as it comes into play. You get the same 2 for 1 as the O-ring if I'm not mistaken. Food for thoughts...

Hmm, already suggested!

[CleverPetriDish]

I play Tidehollow Sculler, Dark Confidant, and Thoughtseize in my Wb D+T build. The only problem I have come across is that I really want to do this in the conversion:

Oblivion Ring -> Vindicate
Flickerwisp -> Tidehollow Sculler
Samurai -> Dark Confidant
Cataclysm -> Thoughtseize

But then I lose a lot of the cool interactions this deck can do. Flickerwisp is one of the best cards to combine with Oblivion Ring and Tidehollow Sculler. So I had to take Serra Avengers out instead. That isn't exactly perfect either. The bottom line is that there are just too many guys to fit into the deck. I will say that my combo matchup is probably the best of any D+T deck out there. And my control matchup has improved since I made the switch. But a lot of the previously "pretty good" matchups have slid into "not so good" range.

[Finn]

Yeah, Petri. I have noticed the same annoying problems trying to play black. In a sense, Dark Confidant is the perfect addition to this deck. And black is the perfect color to splash. And I have splashed for black twice. But then, there are all these tiny nitpicks that prevent me from keeping it. grrr

[CleverPetriDish]

No thanks on the Knight of the Reliquary. It's a cool card, but I don't think it is going to work out. Gaddock Teeg, yes. Tarmo, possibly. But not this guy. D+T's creatures have to remain by and larg disruptive or you just have Angel Stompy w/out the Angel.

Does anyone plan on trying out Path to Exile?

[memnarch]

First thanks too Finn and all the early developers of the deck. Its a blast to play, it feels like white weenie back in mirrodin kamigawa T2 era. I have been having great success with it against a wide range of decks. Good threshold decks, especially with countertop can prove troublesome. But Aether Vial and Flicker bouncing helps much, along with O-rings and Mangara. Other type of aggro control can be troublesome like Merfolk. Storm combo is difficult but I don't get much of that in it seems. I was surprised how well it can bounce back from stacks, dragon stompy and even goblins pre board. I really like Circle of Protection Red. It just helps against burn a lot which would otherwise be fairly difficult, glow rider helps with that too. What I really like most is the stability of the basic lands and I would feel confidant taking against a diverse field in a tournament. But please offer any suggestions in what I have a D&T deck tweaked to a largely control and aggro field. I do get goblins enough to where I like having ghostly prison and circle of protection. And enough bastard elf aggro decks where I really enjoy the sweeper: keg.


15 plains
4 karakas

4 mangara
3 isamaru
2 jotun grunt
4 serra avenger
4 figure of destiny
4 flickerwisp

4 umezawa's jitte
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
4 oblivion ring
4 powder keg

SB:

1 tormod's crypt
2 jotun grunt
4 ghostly prison
4 circle of protection red
4 glowrider

here is color breakdown

[Curby]

But please offer any suggestions in what I have a D&T deck tweaked to a largely control and aggro field.

Have you tried Finn's list? It's made expressly for aggro and control, and has a very tough time against combo. You gave some reasons that the cards you added are good, but I'm not convinced that they're better.

Keg is great for killing large swarms of stuff, but so is Cataclysm, and the original list can better exploit that, with cards such as Flagstones. The deck can cast Cataclysms two turns in a row with nothing but land!

Once you have 4 Cats between the maindeck and side, tribal swarms of all types become easier to handle as well. I wonder if you really need those CoPs. Between your point removal, combat tricks, sweepers, and Tividar in the side, Goblins shouldn't be too difficult to handle. If burn is a problem you've probably still got better options.

Figure of Destiny is huge, but not very tricky, and the deck revolves around tricks. Having more grave hate in the form of maindecked Samurai and Stonecloaker would mean you don't need random stuff like a single Crypt in the side, plus Samurai and Stonecloaker can help out in the first game.

4 Jittes could work in a aggro-heavy/burn-heavy meta, but you'll probably end up seeing more than you want to. 4 Mangaras are certainly too many.

I wonder if you chose these cards based on available resources, or if you think they're superior. In the end you shouldn't change something that works for you, but only if you're sure nothing would work better. If you haven't tried a more traditional list, I'd give it a shot. =)

[Maëlig]

Have you tried Finn's list? It's made expressly for control

Uh-uh, control is one of the worst MU with the classic build. At least against combo you have some very effective hate (which isn't always enough, admitedly).

I agree with everything else kirbysdl said on your build though. Looks a bit strange to me, ESPECIALLY the lack of cataclysm MD in what you describe as a "largely control and aggro field". Also, seems to me that you're a bit low on lands.

[memnarch]

OK yes I did start out with Finn's build. Then after every game I thought what would have been good against that and I add or change something. All the creatures in there are fairly large. Figure grows to 4/4 and sometimes 8/8. I see alot of fatties so thats why I put them in Goyf, Tombstalker, Doran. The build only has 19 lands but 15 are basic. I actually like this low ratio because later in the game you constantly draw answers and there is enough one drops where you can keep 1 land hands. I did have cataclysm in the side. But the land still match up is beatable. Powder keg is much quicker and solves alot of the same problems like armies of elves or Ichord. Teamed up with ghostly prison the deck has plenty of answers to aggro. The flagstones were just throwing off my tempo when I had to play two. That was my main problem it was happening often enough that the effect just isn't worth it to me. Also just giving another wasteland target. I feel like if your going to play one color might as well play basics to get around non-basic hate, which is everywhere. Stuff dies so frequently in Legacy that I really don't mind running 4 of something if its good. I almost feel like it just wins the attrition war playing more creatures then the opponent has answers too.