I can see it being better and faster against EtW/Bridge swarms, but how is it better against Elves or Goblins, which have threats everywhere between 1 and 4? Blowing away 3-drops takes 5 turns with Keg, vs 4 with Cat.Originally Posted by memnarch
P.S. Powder Keg doesn't do much against land recursion decks and misses enchantments entirely. Samurai with Cataclysm hit everything.
Last edited by Curby; 02-05-2009 at 10:37 AM.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Cataclysm HIT Planeswalker.
You each choose 1 artifact, 1 creature, 1 land, 1 enchantment, and sacrifice the rest i.e. the rest including Planeswalkers lol
Wait I can't tell if that was sarcastic or not...
The oracle for Cataclysm: Each player chooses from the permanents he or she controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a land, then sacrifices the rest.
So they would have to sacrifice their planeswalkers?
Yes they would. Planeswalkers aren't covered in Cataclysm's wording, and since it requires them to sacrifice all other permanents, any Walkers die.
Whoops, too used to thinking in terms of Deed. Thanks for the clarification. This is of course even better reason to use the kitty.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Hi (since this is my first post on the source),
I have been playing D&T some while now, but I am not happy with cataclysm (in my meta at least).
Does anyone have a decent decklist which does not run cataclysm main? I encountered someone at a rather big tourney in Utrecht (NL) but i did not yet get his decklist.
Thanks
Funny you should mention this:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...=50057&page=62
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
hmm, interesting.
at the moment, i wanted to stay monowhite or maximum included one color.
with all the stiffles around here, getting three colors of mana in a deck like this sometimes gets you screwed ...
i hadn't thought about the comments you made on removing the cataclysms ... They are however in the current meta no good ...
anyway, appears i got to check the mtgsalvation forums more often then
including an exalted angel is no option imo, however, i was considering of revisiting the old angel stompy again (well, a new version ofcourse), but will have to test that first ...
anyway, thanks for the link ;-)
DEATH & TAXES
Lands (22):
3x Karakas
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Rishadan Port
12x Plains
Creatures(21):
4x Serra Avenger
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1x Jotun Grunt
3x Flickerwisp
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Stonecloaker
Others(17):
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Umezawa´s Jitte
3x Cataclysm
Graveyard ->6 (Samurai, Stonecloaker, Jotun)
Burn ->5 (9) (Jitte, Finks (Swords))
Spot-Removal (Creature) ->13 (Mangara, Jitte, Swords, O-Ring)
Swarm-Removal (Creature) ->6 (Cataclysm, Jitte)
Problem Cards (Enchantments….) ->6 (Mangara, O-Ring)
Mana intensive strategies ->10 (Mangara, Port, Cataclysm)
Counter ->8(10) (Vial, Port, (Stonecloaker))
Evasion ->9 (Serra, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker)
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh plays 4 Mongoose and 4 Goyf plus 1-2 others from time to time. We have 6 MD cards that should keep Goyf small and keep the opponent from reaching threshold. We have 13 removals for the goyfs and the 1-2 others (swan, predator, dragon, enforcer) and basically 15 creatures that trade with the mongoose. Counterspells can be dodged with the Vial. Counterbalance can be dealed with mangara/vial or well timed O-Ring/Port.
MUC:
Call the Skybreaker -> Flickerwisp
Shackles -> O-Ring, Mangara
Lands -> Ports, Mangara, Cataclysm
Burn:
Aside the fact we play pro red stuff and true believer in the side, we play Jitte and Swords for lifegain. The Kitchenfinks main in combination with Flickerwisp is a solid preboard gameplan (Finks +2 -> Flickewisp +2 -> apply pressure until he tries to kill Flickerwisp -> respond with Swords +3 or Stonecloaker; if he tries to kill Finks -> recursion + 2) Postboard Tivadar, CoP:R and Silver Knight are pretty solid.
Other common problemcards/-decks:
Dreadnought -> Swords, Flickerwisp, Mangara
Painter -> Cataclysm, Swords, Mangara, Flickerwisp/Vial, O-Ring
Standstill -> Vial, Response Stonecloaker, Port
Loam -> Samurai, Jotun, Stonecloaker
SotF -> See Loam + O-Ring, Mangara
Solitaire -> Port, Cataclysm, Mangara, Flickerwisp -> Enchanted Lands, Gravehate, Karakas on Serra´s Sanctum……….
Lackey (first turn) -> Swords, Isamaru
Aluren -> Mangara, Jitte with Counters, Swords, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker
Crystalline Sliver -> Cataclysm and strong creatures with Jitte
Raffinity -> Cataclysm is a house, Swords make sure you get there
Combo:
We basically need to get really lucky.
I believe one of the most underestimated cards in this deck is Flickerwisp. It constantly wins me game after game. I would like to even play 4.
Flickerwisp can do:
+ Tricks with Mangara and Vial
+ Combattricks with Vial
+ Tricks with Vial and O-Ring
+ with Vial it safes every card you have from a spot removal
+ Makes sure you get to keep an extra beater/land when playing cataclysm
+ Changes O-Ring Targets
+ Reset Grunt
+ Reuse Stonecloaker -> Reuse Flickerwisp
+ Reset Kitchen Finks and Lifegain
+ Free the way from Blockers
+ Good against: Isochron Scepter, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond
+ Disconnects Equipments (Jitte, Cranial Plating,….)
+ Avoids being attacked for a turn -> against creaturelight decks with big beaters it is basically a fog (Goyf, Tombstalker, Doran).
+ Solution against: Smokestack, Chalice, Dreadnought, Engineered Explosives, Vial, Powder Keg, Counterbalance, Crusher, Sea Drake
+ On top of that Flickerwisp is a 3/1 beater with evasion that needs to be dealt with and even trades with mongoose. Evasion + Jitte is a good thing as well. Even it is pretty easy to remove I don´t care if it does happen, because Flickerwisp does it´s primary job when it hits the ground. If it gets to beat I consider it as a bonus and if it gets handled it ate up removal and resources which is fine too good for my mangara´s and serra´s.
Synergies the deck has:
Kitchenfinks + Flickerwisp
Kitchenfinks + Cataclysm
Kitchenfinks + Stonecloaker
Flickerwisp + Jotun Grunt
Flickerwisp + Vial + Mangara
Flickerwisp + Vial
Flickerwisp + Vial + O-Ring
Cataclysm + Port
Cataclysm + Flagstones
Cataclysm + Mangara
Cataclysm + Flickerwisp
Karakas + Mangara
Karakas + Isamaru
Serra + Vial
Stonecloaker + Mangara
Stonecloaker + Kitchenfinks
Stonecloaker + Jotun Grunt
Stonecloaker + Flickerwisp
Stonecloaker + Blocker
Concerning SB:
The SB varies depending on the meta I play in. Cards that see play are:
Glowrider
True Believer (Not as useful in a bigger variety of decks -> not in MD)
CoP:R
CoP:G Zoo, Goyf, Nimble, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Terravore, Pumped Elves, Some Slivers, Green Stompy, Doran, Troll Ascetic…..Stops every Critter from TreshDeck except Fledgling and Swan.
Orim´s Chant
Abeyance
CotV
Silver Knight (White Knight -> Got to see some Zombies, Suicide, TA, Tombstalker Decks + Snuff Out and similar removal spells are pretty common around here)
Tivadar of Thorn
O-Ring
Runed Halo
Disentchant / Seal of Cleansing
Wrath of God/Cataclysm
Thorn of Amethyst
Just wanted to ask if you see some of the stuff pointed out above a little different or if you have different thoughts and want something to add.
This is my first real post in a thread that has nothing to do with Tournament reports or announcements so you can take anything I say with a grain of salt. (Had to get that out of the way). I've been testing different builds of D&T for about three months and right now I've been pretty happy with my most recent build. I noticed some posts suggesting some really interesting cards and I decided to test them ALL. After a lot of blood, sweat, and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts tooling on me I came up with this list.
Critters [21]
4x Serra Avenger
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Isamaru
2x Viridian Shaman
2x Stonecloaker
Sorcerizzles [3]
3x Cataclysm
Instanities [4]
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts [7]
4x Aether Vial
3x Jitte
Enchantifiers [3]
Oblivion Ring
Landscapes [23]
6x Plains
2x Forests
1x Savannah
3x Flagstones of Troikair
4x Wastelands
3x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
1x Wooded Foothill
Sideboard [15]
4x Aethersworn Cannonist
4x Abeyance
3x Krosan Grip (the card not the set)
3x Tormods Crypt
1x ?
I figure I should explain some of the card choices I made, so here it goes. First off is shaman in the main. It may seem counter intuitive to run a card that has the possibility of blowing up any one of 7 main deck cards but its also just as likely to blow up opposing jittes, vials, dreadnoughts, cranial platings, lion's eye diamonds, ravagers, master of etheriums, lotus blooms, engineered explosives, powder kegs, null rod, etc etc. Every card I've listed so far I've blown up with shaman by either playing her or vialing her out. Not once have I had to blow up one of my trinkets. And blowing up a dreadnought is priceless, it really is.
Now onto Knight of the Reliquary. When I first caught this card in the spoiler I thought it was neat but useless. But then someone brought up the idea of its inclusion in the deck and it got the wheels turning. Shes not a tarmogoyf but its easy for her to get unmanageable and then you combine that with her ability to tutor for lands like Flagstones, Wastelands, and Maze of Ith she becomes even more amazing. I cannot count how many times she has saved my ass from a huge fatty that I could not deal with by keeping them in check with Maze until I drew my answer. So far I've been more than happy with her inclusion and I couldn't fathom cutting her from the list.
And then theres Knight of the White Orchid. He fetches lands. When I need them. And he has first strike, which oddly enough, becomes relevant. Thats all that I have to say about him.
I've considered Teeg, but he shuts down Cataclysm. I don't have Tarmogoyfs and KOR has eaten enough goyfs that I don't really miss his unsightly looking face. My side is a mess, but so am I so that works out for me.
In my gauntlet for testing there is Dreadstill, Sui B, Affinity, TEPS, Ichorid, Team America, and other randoms. So far this list has been testing pretty well so tell me what you think.
Last edited by havi; 02-25-2009 at 06:24 PM.
Unless ravager is on the board. And I'm pretty sure they can select a creature (ravager) an artifact (ornithopter) sac everything else to the ravager and stick it on the thopter when you try to swords the ravager. And pray they don't have DotV on the board... plus by the time you cast it its turn 4, turn 5 with mana open for stp. too slow for affinity. Vialing in flickerwisps would be annoying in the matchup tho.
From what I've read (I haven't had the opportunity to test the affinity MU myself), this deck actually has a decent game vs Affinity.
Flickerwisp gives them fits, messing up their counters. SotPC is REALLY good, stopping DotV and Modular. Mangara Lock gums them up pretty good. O-ring on Cranial is devastating, and they have no real way to stop it.
With no Ravager (or SotPC on the board), Cataclysm becomes good, since you remove a lot of the extra artifacts from the board that help them get their crazy starts, giving you loads of CA. Affinity really needs a lot of extra stuff on the board to do anything (artifact land, artifact creature and artifact make Myr Enforcer a sad top deck, and that is only enough to cast thoughtcast if they keep land, creature and springleaf drum... and then they still can't cast anything they draw unless its ornithopter/land and frogmite, and that doesn't scare us that much).
It just seems like a good MU. They pretty much need "teh nutz" and we need to have zero answers and zero delay. I mean, Isamaru+Karakas gums up their attacks on the ground, even with Cranial, and I hear Swords deals with Ornithopter really well (which is probably their only flier... I don't think many people are still running somber hoverguards).
Sorry if I ask but I am not sure how Cataclysm functions exactly.
I know that it kills Planeswalker but what happens if someone has a MYR Enforcer and a Cranial Plating in play? Does he get to chose the Enforcer as a creature and the Plating as the Artifact and gets to keep both. Or counts the Enforcer for Creature and Artifact and therefor needs to sac the Plating. Same Situation accurs with Artifact Lands.
Thx for qualified Answers
He gets to keep both.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
btw the reason why you can play cataclysm and hold an Ethersworn Canonist and [insert other creature] at the same time (but no Jitte or Vial)
Hey guys. If any of you are seriously thinking about playing this in Chicago, do yourself a favor and check out the Cataclysm-free builds being discussed. It is an 11th hour switch to suit an aggro-control heavy environment. The conversation over at MTGSalvation on the topic is pretty good. But I thought I would post something I have been looking at (but not tried out - no time). The reason is that removing Cataclysm frees up a lot of design space.
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stonecloaker
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
11 Plains
board
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tivadar of Thorn
This build is an experiment based on the idea that if Cataclysm is out, you can have a decent shot at beating combo consistently while at the same time shoring up your aggro-control matches (where Cataclysm is weak). Note that Samurais have been replaced by Ethersworn Canonist. And Cataclysm is now Aven Mindcensor. The question remains if that is the right move or not, but you really have a decent amount of land hate if you can hit a fetchland every few games with the Mindcensor combined with Ports and Wasteland. The Goblins matchup is hammered by these changes, though. And you give a bit more to Stax and Aggro in general. But Those matchups are usually pretty close to a bye.
Whaddya think?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Ok, but i didnt get your SB. So to win combo u need 3x ethersworn e 3x aven in Md + 1 Ethersworn, 4 Glowrider , 4 chant in SB?
Couldnt we cut 2 glowrider + 1 o-ring for 3 cataclysm in the SB?
You could. You can do whatever you want. But I side in Glowriders more than any other card. And when it comes down against combo, its pretty much a done deal - moreso than any other card.
I had been using Cataclysm for so long that I don't have a lot of relevant testing without it, though. So it remains to be seen if it was more useful than I have recently been giving it credit for.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
My girlfriend's going to play D&T on our next tournament (she usually plays a hyper aggressive elf deck) and this is the list that she wanted to play:
Main deck:
4x Æther Vial
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Flickerwisp
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Serra Avenger
4x Silver Knight
3x Stonecloaker
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Eiganjo Castle
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Karakas
10x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
Sideboard
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Tivadar of Thorn
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Runed Halo
4x Cataclysm
However I have my doubt's on the sideboard so any help there would be hot...
Also, regarding the affinity issue: I've been playing affinity for a long time, but Ive never lost Game 1 in a match against D&T so I have my doubt's about it being a good matchup, even with cataclysm and runed hallo I don't really have trouble beating it, so I wonder why people think it's a good matchup for D&T (note that I play against D&T a lot and not only my girlfriend pilot's it.).
This might be because my affinnity build isn't really like the one in the new primer (no blue or enforcer, and main deck dark conficant, needle's, fling and atog+blinkmoth nexus), so maybe it's just because my build is so much different... (If you want my decklist pm me, if enough people ask I'll post in in the appopriate thread).
Greetzzzz,
Robin.
This possibly will not work because Karakas Oracle wording is "{T}: Return target legendary creature to its owner's hand." ;)
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