I think the lots of Hymn + lots of TNN builds of BUG Delver are probably just bad matchups for fair decks. And they tend to have great SBs for the matchup too. Wilt Leaf is good, but I've always disliked how narrow it is.
Has anyone ever run more than one Path in their SB?
Tried a one of Magus of the Wheel tonight at a local event. There might be a deck that can abuse that card, but I don't think D+T is it. I played vs RUG Delver twice, Enchantress and a Grixis Deck and I won them all but man I really never wanted Magus' ability. The closest point was when I had a Magus out vs RUG Delver and coulda refilled my hand at the cost of possibly giving him a bolt. It didn't seem worth it and I just won a little slower.
There are just so many decks that benefit from dumping their hand into the graveyard - we're one of the only ones that has pretty much zero graveyard-as-resource upside. But we're feeding DRS, Reanimator, Snapcaster, Goyfs, etc.
I ran 2 Path to Exile in the sb and I think I might keep trying it for a while, but obviously they helped vs RUG Delver. At first glance it seems like a nonbo with Magus, but against Delver decks it generally doesn't matter and is just a better-STP. Decks playing around Blood Moon often fetch out their whole suite of basics pretty early. I'm also still trying to improve the Infect matchup and infinite-STPs seems good as Fireslinger hasn't done enough for me, it's still a turn too slow generally.
Let's say, theoretically, we had 4 Path to Exile in the board. What matches would you board all 4 in for? 3?
Finn insists that you jam 4 and win more than you used to. To be honest, I also don't see why it would help so much. I get that it's a strong beater with the possibility of a strong effect, but how exactly is it strong in matchups against popular decks? The primer has great notes on Mangara tricks, Flickerwisp tricks, etc. I'm noob enough to need a similar guide on Wheel to understand how it would be useful in our deck.Originally Posted by iatee
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
"The card is good enough to sit next to Thalia as the centerpiece of the deck. You have to change your mindset to get the hang of it though, which kind of makes me laugh when I consider that the biggest issue for people coming to DnT is the required change in mindset. You're going to have to do it again."
I don't really know exactly what this means in a literal sense, but perhaps people experimenting with it aren't getting the most out of it?
I will admit that on paper Magus of the Wheel seems absolutely terrible. We complained that DTT made our deck bad, because it did and this just seems like it's an on the house DTT, especially when most Legacy decks rely on card selection, not card advantage. If DnT is designed to pick on the metagame by running the brainstorm decks out of resources through a combination of soft locks and equipments, doesn't wheel of fortune completely negate that?
Finn's posts on Magus however have been very emotive and self assured, and I have a hard time believing that Finn, someone who invented this very deck among many others, can be so completely off base when it comes to deckbuilding. It's not out of the question, but for now I think that I just may not have the required mindset yet to make the most of Magus.
It wouldn't be the first time a person evaluates a card wrong. Luckily you can test it yourself to see if it's worth it.
One way of looking at the matter from a negative angle: how many times have you played this deck during these years and wished you had an an off-color creature that would draw you and the opponent 7 fresh cards?
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Guys
As I mentioned earlier Magus of the Moon+ Council's Judgement is rough. Same goes for Cataclysm.
I'm thinking given the current manabase (2 plains) we might want to move back towards Oblivion Ring or at least spells that don't require
Or am I looking at this wrong and since Council's Judgement is much better over Oblivion Ring, we're not boarding it in when Magus is still in the deck?
Barook had mentioned Mangara which sounds ideal over O-Ring even if it's only a single use after Karakas becomes a mountain.
I might try one copy of Mangara and O-Ring in place of my two Council's Judgement and see how it goes.
If I chicken out on one of each I'll probably run two copies of Mangara.
Yeah I've been having success with a Mangara main. I have also been playing 3 Caverns/3 Karakas/2 Plains for a while and Mangara works well in that build.
I might go from 4 Flickerwisp/1 Wingmare to 3 Flickerwisp / 2 Wingmare to ease the double-white-but-not-human requirements even further without dropping down on flyers.
Cataclysm I think is totally unnecessary for RW, which is so strong against Miracles already.
Here are some more concrete results:
Actually, I think my sample set was too small! I have been liking it less recently. I am at about 35 games against the mostly blue stuff I have.
Miracles has been a match I really like Wheel in, and I use it often as long as I can manage the mana to make it comfortable. Steve, you are correct that the tactics are different. I am much more willing to walk into a sweeper as long as I keep some mana open to wheel. But even when I don't have it, with four in the deck, I feel that I can topdeck it often, and that has proved to be true. Keeping two mana open has really been the sticking point, and I have lost a few times because I went to Port only to have the opponent respond with Terminus. Much more fun is the fact that they can't really use any miracles if you do leave the mana open since you are changing the top card.
I also faced my friend's Land Tax deck which is typically brutal for D+T. Wheel was very good in that one, and I always wanted it in basically the same way for the same reasons.
I tried it against Shardless too. It goes a long way to diluting their card advantage, but is not excellent for the cost since that matchup is such a rat race - and every mana seems to count.
Finally, against RUG, I have begun siding them out even though this was the matchup that got me thinking it was great because it doesn't seem like it should be, but was. RUG is simply better at puking out its hand. In the beginning, I had Thalia in most of my games, and I was getting skewed results because the guys were using their Wastelands on my lands and not able to go through their hand fast enough. More recently, the guys at the shop have learned how to face the deck and - critically - taking more pains to keep Thalia off the table. I have to keep bouncing her and I am not able to make the most of the MoW that way. I'm actually annoyed at myself for committing the error of believing the results of 6 or 7 games or whatever it was.
I think Magus makes a fine sb card against Miracles or possibly Lands or could have been freakin great before Dig got the axe. I think I agree with Barook though. I wish I had the time to optimize a deck for this card. FOr now, I have to back off my claim that it is the cat's meow.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I think a red stompy / prison type build might work better for the card - you're dumping their hand, can sometimes cast it t1 even, or soon after a blood moon / trinisphere / whatever. Maybe have some graveyard-element to it too.
I do agree that the card is legacy-level powerful in theory, but when I was playing it I felt like giving my opponent 7 cards was just too high variance, and it really would give up the control over the game that D+T has in most matchups.
Anyone have any thoughts on my Path to Exile question? What are matchups where you'd go so far as to play 4 STP and 4 PTE postboard if you had them? 4/3? 4/2?
I acknowledge I'm probably in the minority, but I really prefer Gut Shot over Path to Exile.
The matches I wan't added point removal are namely - Elves, Infect, Mother of Runes decks, Young Pyro/Delver decks - Gut Shot hits all of these, doesn't ramp the opponent vs Elves and the Mirror and is a major tempo play avoiding Daze versus Delver/Pyro/Infect. Versus Deathrite and Tarmogoyf decks we already are supplementing removal with Rest in Peace as means to neutralize those creatures.
I think 1-2 is the correct number to have. If you see a lot of Elves/Infect locally I think 2 is totally defensible.
This really only leaves Monastery Mentor, big dumb 8cc+ guys and a few outliers. We have Councils Judgment there.
Again, I'm sure others will disagree with this perspective and maybe can offer some threats that we really want Path to Exile against.
TPDMC
Good points for Gut Shot and Judgment, but we also have Ratchet Bomb, Sudden Demise, and Holy Light for swarms of 0s and 1s. We have so many sideboard options for addressing so many threats that it's odd to me that you'd play more than 1 Path. Are you ok losing the surprise value of Gut Shot for the extra copies? The broad applicability of Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgment? Or are you eating into extra copies of Canonists, Containment Priests, and RiPs?
Path to Exile is a good card, but we have many great options. The question isn't necessarily what you want, but rather what you're willing to give up to get there (my sig?). Instead of asking which matchups 3+ PtEs makes sense in, perhaps it's better to imagine an expected metagame, and sculpt the best 75 to attack it.
To answer the question in good faith though, Delver decks with a lot of */2s would seem like good opportunities for Path, but that overlaps a bit with Sudden Demise since you're splashing Red. Since I'm not splashing Red, I would probably want a Ratchet Bomb in there to x-for-1 a greedy opponent.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
The RW build has great inevitability overall but is a little weaker to being tempo'd out by a creature deck when you don't have a STP at hand. It also isn't tempo'ing out fellow creature decks out as often - so I think the drawback giving them a basic land isn't as big a deal if you can ensure that you'll pretty much always have removal in hand. But against a lot of legacy it's just a strictly better STP anyway.
I'm also playing a very greedy manabase w/ 3 Caverns and only 2 Plains - which has been working out fantastic for me and I highly recommend it - but that plus Magus of the Moon makes Council's Judgment and Sudden Demise harder to play.
Gut shot is clearly better against Elves, a little better vs Infect and okay against Pyromancer decks. PTE is much better against every Delver variant, Maverick, the Mirror, Fish, Jund, Reanimator, Burn and is still actually great vs Infect. I think that outweighs 'better against Elves'. I actually don't think siding in 2 Gut Shots makes any D+T deck actually favored in a match vs Elves anyway. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 don't.
I'm asking what matchups 3+ PTEs make sense in because I want to better understand at what point you would have *too much* removal vs any given deck.
The real cost for RW is that every non-creature spot takes the spot of a potential one-of creature that can be a 4x post-board. But instant speed removal is one of the few things you can't Recruiter for (outside of Fiend Hunter, which I think is pretty bad).
It's absolutely great against greedy decks like BUG which often runs no basics, but it's also a nonbo with Magus.
There's a strong need from time to time for a 5th or 6th Swords to Plowshares, however.
If you want quality removal that bad, why not run Lightning Bolt or Forked Bolt instead with a less greedy manabase (read: less than 3 Caverns)?
PtE is counterproductive to our strategy, so it limits the match-ups where we can profitably run it quite a bit.
And I don't think you need to jam in utility creatures into the board just for the sake of being a tutor target. I like the numbers I run in my current board overall, requiring only minor tweaks at best, if at all.
@TokenSoldier: What's your MTGO account?
I sent it to you on PM
Last edited by TokenSoldier; 11-25-2015 at 09:37 PM.
How do you guys feel about Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a Miracles answer?
4 mana is alot, with Thalia it's even more. I don't think this is something we're looking for.
Yeah, makes sense. Plus I can't think of many decks where it's that good over cards already in the 75. I came across the card last night and spent a good hour thinking about it against Miracles. Thalia + Elspeth is real bad, it takes a while for us to get to 5 lands. Plus it also goes against the idea of trying to keep effects on creatures. The upside is a soldier each turn against Terminus, but that's really it, and Recruiter does just that.
I spent the past three days trying Mangara over Council's Judgment in the SB and went back to Council's Judgment. Mangara wound up being too slow or continually being answered. At least if you're able to resolve Judgment you're answering a threat and can spend the next turn being proactive. I found Mangara took too long to set up and lost tempo in the process. I still think both cards are great in the SB, but for now I'm sticking with Council's Judgment.
Further working with Council's Judgment I also found that fetching for both plains in the early game is the right thing to do. Cavern or another fetch will eventually show up if you need to resolve a Magus of the Moon, and in the match ups where I kept Magus in and boarded in Council's Judgment the sequence seemed fine. I like Magus against Miracles because it keeps them off of Entreat the Angels for a long enough time that you can get some real damage in. It's not the ideal card, but it helps buy some attacks in the middle game as their only out is Terminus or an answer for Magus. If you can get Sword of War and Peace on Magus, then their only answer is Jace which is double blue and similarly tricky for Miracles - but often less as double basic Island (for Miracles) is more common then double Plains. I believe Bahra said Magus was decent against Miracles a while back for similar reasons.
@TokenSoldier: Did you test 2 Mangara, completely replacing CJ, or a 1/1 split between them as tutor target during that 3 day test?
I went 5-3-1 at scg open somerset not winning 3 win and ins for d2 in a row. super frustrating after starting 5-1.
I played rw with 3 caverns, 3 flickerwisp, 2 wingmare main
sb (all humans)
3 ethersworn
2 containment priest
1 manic vandal
2 fireslinger
1 mirran crusader
1 magus
2 rest in peace
1 needle
2 path
r1 shardless (won)
g1 (loss) mulled, hymned, didn't draw a 3rd land, he had 3 goyfs
g2 (won) dread of night no match for recruiter magus recruiter magus. getting the second one was key cause he actually did draw into dismember.
g3 (won) vial online I recruit for magus, next turn vial again on his end - he taps black and green - i recruit again for a second magus and he's tapped out. cast magus and vial magus.
r2 infect (won)
g1 (loss) quite a long game, mangara'd and stp'd agents, he found a third the turn before I would finally have jitte online
g2 (won) he had to force my fireslinger pitching blighted agent, let me get out jitte and canonist and win easily
G3 (won)he mulled and played t1 wasteland. t2 agent. I wasted his trop instead of playing fireslinger since he seemed off mana (playing wasteland t1), then cast slinger the turn after and won.
r3 4c stoneblade
g1 (loss) lost to thoughtseize -> sfm -> tnn
couldn't race tnn and skull esp combined
g2 (won) he scooped to t3 vial Thalia + cast magus
g3 (won) grindy game with Thalia/wingmare. needled his Drs and was threatening magus but I didn't actually want to cast it since I also had mangara lock. he misfetched and couldn't cast his zealous. but even if he had the mana I had Karakas lock in hand.
r4 storm (Ross merriam)
g1 (loss) thought he was probably on storm so I mulled vial vial mom sfm lands to another bad hand w/ two ports, mom, flicker, two other lands. kept that and ported him with mom beatdown but didn't draw anything relevant in time.
g2 (loss) kept revoker magus rip sfm 3 lands, not great at all but not mull worthy, didn't draw a better hatebear for a while and he had his one of massacre.
r5 4c delver (won)
g1 (won) he had double delvers, they didn't flip in time
g2 (lost) darkblast takes over a game
G3 (won) mirran crusader + jitte, plus bskull vs two anglers two drs
r6 infect (won)
g1 (won) had two stp and vial with flickerwisp, he had to fow t2 jitte
g2 (loss) kept a white-mana-less hand with stp and path and revoker didn't draw white source
G3 (won) path plus stp at key moments to stay alive, then fireslinger sealed up the game
r7 miracles (draw)
g1 (won) I was on th play, he held back a delta t1 instead of playing top and I blind named drs with revoker not knowing he was miracles. (had magus in hand). didn't matter cause early mangara lock w/ caven kept him off white
g2 (loss) super long grindy game, got him to 1 life before jace came down probably could have won with a different sequence somewhere along the line but I don't know where off the top of my head.
g3 went to time, he had izzet staticaster so I wasnt ahead but I still had a good shot of winning
r8 burn (loss)
we start g1 and judges tell us to end the game and wait after a few turns - we're getting new matches. I almost certainly woulda won that game since I had double Thalia double sfm and he didn't have much left in hand. while sitting around and waiting for 15 minutes I show him what I'm running. then eventually we go up and the judges say they messed up and we are playing. now I really regret our friendly chat, he seemed more pissed at the situation than I am, but he def came out advantaged since I was almost certainly gonna win g1 and also totally gave up any element of surprise.
g1 (won) managed to stabilize in time to get skull and win
g2 (loss) t1 vial smashed, sfm'd skull smashed
g3 (loss) had an okay hand but he had a good one. I coulda played a little differently, pathing his creature instead of stp to keep the potential lifegain in my hand and not playing my 3rd land which let me be priced out. Pretty sure I was gonna lose regardless of my plays though.
r9 miracles (loss)
g1 (won) he plays 4 islands in a row and I'm assuming I'm playing against high tide or something, but really he just had a weird draw. had cavern and Thalia and recruiter and won fairly easily. my Karakas made his clique and venser not-blockers.
g2 (loss) was ahead, he blind flips entreat for a win
g3 (loss) he gets countertop out early while I mom-> sfm with skull already in hand. I have a cavern on human but draw all my non-humans. I had a sfm with sofi on it very early which woulda just won but he topdecked snapcaster for his wear/tear. I just have some recruiters in play. he gets staticaster out, which I actually manage to kill with flickerwisp the counterbalance then STP, but he entreats soon after.
I didn't have a vial against either of the miracles players for all 6 games, though I did have caverns. I think I win all the games I lost vs miracles if I had a vial in hand. I did knowingly go into the tournament not bringing much in my sb for miracles or burn. the storm loss otoh was just variance, we all know how those games go. I actually had very few active vials all day, come to think of it.
the anti-infect tech did work as planned. I sb'd out the thalias and maguses, fireslinger was actually great and I think I'll keep playing them. I've still yet to play them in a d+t mirror, I'd like to see how much it hurts w-d+t post board, if it's just a nuisance or a real blowout.
I'm still very happy not siding out a single STP vs miracles. there was never a time when I wasn't happy to have one in hand, killing every mentor and staticaster is key.
manic vandal only had one good game (the stoneblade one) and the containment priests had no games but the rest of the sb all did work. maybe that 3rd magus in the sb isn't the best use of space. still not sold on 2 paths one way or another, they were quite good for me overall and had way more use than gutshot would have had - the shardless player g1 didn't play basics so I brought in one, brought them in vs 4c delver, they were great vs infect, and they are fine vs burn even if it's not a trump card or anything. but I coulda used just one more trump card like pia/kiran or cataclysm in the miracles matches. still they were all close and I don't want to overreact, esp when 3 caverns gives me so many free g1s vs miracles. burn is kinda whatever, I don't want to waste a sb slot on burn, though there was a decent amount out today.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote