Well it depends how much you have to side in. But Revokers aren't terrible, the upside might not be as high as Thalia's since they only hit Hierarch and they don't always have one in play - but they never actually cost you the game either.
Well I think I've never lost against Infect because of my own Thalia, and of course two winners plans don't bother guys, even less having a low quantity of effective resources against them and needing something early. If I cannot display both plans safely I'll keep untap for a posible StP if I feel that I could lose next turn, but obviously I won't play Thalia if I'm short on mana. I cannot understand this line of play facing maybe the most tempo matchup along the format. And of course, justify the plan because you'll bring at least 3 Canonist postboard seems like a joke. The guy who justified this should test the same plan against Storm or Burn because he'll bring Canonists as well, so he could play (and win) without Thalia easily...
I read a lot about Thalia by herself, but I read nothing about her supporting the rest of mana disruption. One side without the other is just not worth against Infect, don't forget guys, we need here as much mana denial as possible, and by this I use to keep in a couple of Revokers to follow up Wasteland, Port and Thalia, because here Thalia is much better than Revoker, not as someone told. I was stunned by what I read here
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES
Hello everyone,
someone is working on the version with Eldrazi Displacer main?
I'd to hear some analysis!
Much better in the slower matchups such as Lands, Shardless Bug and Miracles. Also good vs. Eldrazi and the mirror. Fairly useless in the faster matchups and against combo but its a great in your flex spots should your meta warrant it. Put it in the stable with Mirran Crusader, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindcensor, Brimaz, etc.Originally Posted by benjiman13
If you've been in games where you couldn't play Thalia because you were short on mana to hold up StP, then you have had games where Thalia was a bad card. The key is just to recognize those games when they happen. There are obviously games where Thalia is good vs Infect, the real question is what the good/bad ratio is - I don't think the ratio is great.
Thalia can randomly be bad in lots of fast matchups - e.g. just last night I lost a game to UR Delver because with a Thalia in play, I needed to draw a 4th land to both StP a creature and equip something to a creature for the win, and I didn't draw it. Thalia cost me the game, but that doesn't mean Thalia is a bad card in that matchup, obviously it is quite good overall - but let's not pretend like it can never be a card that ends up hurting you vs. fast decks. It is a drawback that's priced into playing a powerful card and it will happen a certain % of the time, the question is what the % is.
Infect is not a pure tempo deck, so it's not the most tempo deck in the format - it's a tempo deck that threatens fast combo.
Vs pure tempo Delver decks we are generally fine as soon as we resolve a Vial or Thalia and can take some hits from a Delver or Goyf because so much of their hand is cantrips - Thalia slows the game and lets us catch up on board and eventually pull ahead. If we resolve a t1 Vial, maybe we're never actually behind on board. We don't need to hold up StP or Wasteland out of fear of dying out of nowhere, we've got a decent amount of turns to work with and a lot of blockers.
Vs Infect we don't have that breathing room. During those early turns, StP and Canonist are the only way to stop a fast combo on an Agent or Elf with trample. With a Thalia in play, Invigorate now costs 1 mana. Become Immense... still usually 1 mana. Berserk is now 2, and Vines' pump mode is now probably shut off at 3 - that's the only card that's meaningfully affected. But most of the combinations of those cards still don't require more than 2 mana (Invigorate+Invigorate = 2 mana, Invigorate+Immense = 2 mana, Invigorate+Berserk = 3 mana). When it comes to their combo hands, their curve is very, very low, even with a Thalia in play.
Thalia is good vs their slower, cantrip-heavy hands, where they look more like a Delver deck. But post-board, we should only be keeping hands that are very likely to beat those slower hands anyway.
Canonist and Thalia do very different things vs Storm and Burn.
Vs Storm Canonist and Thalia are both essentially win cons - they literally can't win with Canonist on board and rarely can with Thalia on board. (I'm sure we've all played this matchup enough to know that it's not impossible though.) Still - they are fairly equivalent for the most part. You just need one - but you absolutely need one, and once it's in play you just want to win ASAP and keep it on board.
Vs. Burn, Canonist only provides marginal value (sometimes works against us as a Smash target) but it's a 2 drop that might buy a turn and trades with most of their dudes. Thalia, on the other hand is fantastic - Burn does not have mana dorks, 0 mana spells or any way to smooth its land drops, so the tax is pretty oppressive. She also blocks very well, eating everything but Swiftspear. She preys on every aspect of their deck. So Canonist and Thalia are nowhere close to being equivalents here.
Thalia+Vial+Wasteland+Port is a great combination that wins a good % of DnT's games. That's because in those games we didn't have to cast non-creature spells or use or lands as mana. The mana denial plan takes away most of our mana too, but we get around that by avoiding non-creature spells and cheating mana from Aether Vial.
Infect is a matchup where we do want to cast spells and use our mana. The cards you are hoping to see in your opening hand are StP, SfM, Jitte, Canonist, Vial, Wasteland. Most of those are mana intensive. StP requires holding white up, Wasteland requires using a land drop, SfM, even if you cheat it into play, requires an activation cost and an equip cost. If you naturally draw Jitte, you need to have a creature in play, cast it, have it resolve and equip it - all of which is extremely mana intensive.
Anyway, I think more people should at least test this boarding strategy. If it is wrong to board Thalias out vs Infect, it is only wrong by a small margin, and if it is right, it is not right by an enormous margin either. But I have found myself winning more with my current boarding strategy than I did before and I do play this matchup quite a lot. Imperial might play slightly differently here than Mono-W and as I feel like I'm playing towards more and faster inevitabilities (Jitte + tutorable pinger) and their mana is pressured on another dimension by the threat of Magus. But I don't think any my arguments are particularly dependent on build.
Not to derail the infect discussion....
but... GP Columbus is 2 weeks away and I still need a deck!
DNT has been putting up okay results online (mostly monowhite of course) and from my experience playing paper Legacy at side-events at SCG and GPs over the past 6 months i feel like Eldrazi and Burn are going to be even more represented that in the online meta.
This makes me uncertain if I want to go back to the monowhite version or continue to play the imperial splash... I originally shifted to the red splash because I thought it would help me out vs. the lands/shardless decks... but I keep getting paired up against ur delver, uw miracles, monowhite taxes, and burn and the magus's have been dead. I had also experiemnted with skull in the side; but again at these paper events burn just seems to be over represented and that makes me want it back in the main.
RW hasn't put up as many results but that may just be as a result of it being underplayed (esp. with recruiters hard to come by in paper).
Given my estimation (which isn't neccessarily correct) of an Eldrazi, Miracles, Burn, and DnT heavy meta.... which deck would you take to the GP?
Miracles and Eldrazi seem like fair to positive MUs according to a lot of D&T experts (I'm not one). Burn can be tricky, but is more easily hated out with CoP: Red and other dedicated sideboard hate (it's a smaller investment in sideboard slots if you're on the Enlightened Tutor plan).
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Imperial has a slightly better MU against Miracles and Eldrazi. Mono white DnT has a small advantage versus Imperial but knowledge of the mirror can make up the difference. Burn is usually a pretty shit MU but it shouldn't be very prevalent after round 3ish. Remember that the meta will actually be relatively unknown in such a large tournament with players traveling from outside the area to compete.
I agree; however that's one of the reason I expect to see Eldrazi, Burn, DnT.... the low cost... This isn't like an invitational or Eternal weekend with the most serious of grinders.
Also have 2 byes so that helps get past some of the riff raff.
Miracles is a significantly better matchup for Imperial, to the extent that I'm pretty happy to play it. Eldrazi's about the same - you play fewer flyers but you have a 3 mana auto-win card. Burn and UR Delver are the only matchups that I think are really worse for Imperial, and if you want to load up your sideboard against them, you always have that option. The fact that you have the byes helps. Batterskull is good against all of those decks, so yeah if that's what you want to beat you definitely want it main.
Beyond just the normal "well I think it's just a better deck", another reason to play Imperial at a larger event is that it's still fairly under the radar - and will continue to be until they reprint Recruiter. Your opponents rarely play optimally, often play into Magus, don't know what your SB cards are, etc. There's a lot of value in information in legacy, and playing a deck like this against strangers playing 'familiar' decks gives you a real advantage. That edge will be gone someday, but it isn't yet.
Well, you are discussing Imperial Taxes for the last 5 pages or so, so I think people can - in principle - figure out what it can do.
On a sidenote, is there a good SB tech against Miracles beside Cataclysm? Cataclysm is one of the most awkward cards at times, it costs 5 Mana under Thalia, and sometimes your opponent gets to keep a Land, Top and Mentor which is usually better than everything we'll have left. If it can shrink the board down to a single land on the other side of the table, you should be ahead in any case.
I also feel like you should run Flagstones of Trokair instead of a bunch of Plains, but this makes us a bit softer against Blood Moon (and there are people who are convinced that Blood Moon is good against DnT. It is sometimes, but it has great variance to it).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Somebody suggested Luminarch Ascension a long time ago. Never bothered to try it as I've never felt Miracles to require dedicated hate except Cataclysm and Cavern of Souls, but it should be quite good on paper. Might have lost some value now that they have mentor and Wear/Tear to side in, though...
Some people are playing Sword of War and Peace. Considering how good SoFI is against Miracles, and how much of a priority it is for their counters/removal, it is probably the first card I'd try if I wanted a little extra help against them
This cool list just won an scg classic: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=103788
Anyone have this much success with eldrazi Displacer?
Saw that.... (almost just as I had decided to keep going with the Imperial version)...
the list is a little strange...
I can't imagine that 4 Displacers is needed or great. They definitely drop off in value after the first... Also (for me) one of the main selling points in monowhite is being able to play Serra Avenger; and his list had none.
You've only got 13 white sources in the deck (and I feel like 15 in the std is almost a little too low).
It's 3 mana to activate displacer in a deck that wants to be wasting and porting and deploying equipment and equipping it.... I just dont' see where/when you are going to have all the excess mana.
In short....
I guess I don't like it... but it won so......
These Classics are fairly small events, so you don't want to read too much into any one thing. (e.g. not including a 3rd Karakas when you have 2 Mangara has to be wrong, even if you have the ability to blink him with Displacer.)
It does highlight that a Displacer build is viable at least, and probably quite good in a creature meta. I don't think I would love playing Miracles, Burn or Storm with that deck, but it's probably great vs Eldrazi and most likely just destroys the mirror.
With the increase in Eldrazi; and a possible uptick in the mirror... boht in which I feel that Jitte is the point upon which the game revolves...
Is there a place for Tower of the Magistrate in the 75?
The thing I like about Displacer is its extensibility. 4 seems like too many, but it is a handsome topdeck.
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I think if you want the Tower effect you might as well be playing Eldrazi Displacer, which does the same thing while also doing a million other things. The Eldrazi deck has no way to find its Jittes and Stoneblade has really dropped off the map so really it only wrecks DnT and you don't want the trump card vs a Wasteland deck to be a one-of land that you can't reliably access.
Fair point: concise and well-stated. (re: Tower)
I still don't think I like Displacer though :D
The list surprised me.... the main is weird, but the sideboard is just craziness.... 1 leyline? how is that for real?
I think he was on one of those cant beat heaters, he 2-0ed charbelcher in the quarters! that is a heater!
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