Page 347 of 526 FirstFirst ... 247297337343344345346347348349350351357397447 ... LastLast
Results 6,921 to 6,940 of 10516

Thread: [DTB] Death and Taxes

  1. #6921
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2015
    Location

    NYC
    Posts

    1,328

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.

  2. #6922
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2014
    Location

    Central New York
    Posts

    175

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease
    Holy shit... I actually meant the Brainstorm comparison as an hyperbole, but I see here that I was actually onto something. Please go tell those Grixis Delver players that DRS is NOT a staple element of that deck since the card only truly belongs in Elves....

    At this point I am not sure whether I'm getting trolled, or if you people actually feel clever by posting stuff like this...
    @Luca: You're one of the few making sense. Can't tell if people are trolling you either.

    Quote Originally Posted by H
    If it is true that THC is that good (and it may well be) if we want a deck that can maximize her potential, I think we shouldn't be looking at Death and Taxes, but rather decks that can accelerate her out. In those decks a slightly higher curve is more sustainable anyway, because of the extra mana. So, Maverick with Noble Hierarch, Junk with Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps even Deadguy with Chrome Mox seem like better places to try to maximize the effect of THC.
    My point was simply that this deck might not be the best one to use THC to her maximum effect, because her effect is stronger the earlier you can play her. This doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all, my observation was simply a caution to the idea of running too many and ruining the curve, or cutting other important utility creatures chasing her effect. In those other decks there are ways to mitigate the effect of multiple copies like Brainstorm or Liliana.
    I get what you're saying. And yes, the effects of a turn 2 THC are wonderful. However, it's inappropriate to assess THC's inclusion in the deck in a vacuum. Death and Taxes works as a deck because the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts. It wins as a team. From my perspective, your logic about THC comes across as "THC needs to be the lord and savior of the deck. In order to accomplish this role, she needs to come out turn 2. Don't bother playing her after turn 2 because she lost too much steam". This is not a literal translation, but it's how your comments sound to me.

    Honestly, I think you're mitigating the "big picture" @Luca excellently articulates (see below):

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease
    And this is where you are hopelessly wrong. People get so obsessed with the locking potential of the card that they act as if it will only be worth it when it prevents opponents from casting ANYTHING at all. Decks in legacy are incredibly efficient, and will often utilize all of their mana well into the mid-late game, which means THC will often screw with their plans even later on. More so when they also have to deal with TGT, Port and Wasteland. Even when they already have all the lands they need, delaying shuffle effects and blockers is nothing to scoff at: DnT is not a pure control deck and it has had a strong tempo element at least ever since TGT was printed. THC will improve that aspect of our game in all but the most desperate board positions.
    When you factor in waste/port/thalia 1.0, THC is a strong inclusion, even as a 2x or 3x. In an age of fetchlands and hyper efficient decks than operate off greedy color configs, the fact that your opponent's manabase and creatures come into play tapped while THC is on the table is just silly. I don't think she's a homerun play. But she certainly creates nuances for your opponent to figure out as she herself provides pressure. The game becomes shenanigans if Flickerwisp is involved.

  3. #6923
    Hymn-Slinger
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    2,275

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Warden View Post
    I get what you're saying. And yes, the effects of a turn 2 THC are wonderful. However, it's inappropriate to assess THC's inclusion in the deck in a vacuum. Death and Taxes works as a deck because the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts. It wins as a team. From my perspective, your logic about THC comes across as "THC needs to be the lord and savior of the deck. In order to accomplish this role, she needs to come out turn 2. Don't bother playing her after turn 2 because she lost too much steam". This is not a literal translation, but it's how your comments sound to me.
    I'm really not sure you do get what I am saying though, because that is neither what I said, nor what I meant. Including 2 is perfectly reasonable. I never said the anything about needing to be cast turn 2. I never said anything about being a lord and savior, nor did I imply it. I have no idea how saying something isn't at it's maximum potential is akin to saying it isn't worth playing. I guess my grasp of English has finally eluded me, so it's pointless to argue with what I never said and never implied.

    Could you point to the words that imply "don't bother playing her after turn 2" for me though? Because I have read my comment numerous times now and I can't figure how you draw that conclusion from what I said. In fact, I even said, "this doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all" and yet your take-away is still that I said she isn't worth running at all? I guess words don't mean what I think they mean, I assure you that after this, I will refrain from adding any as it seems I am incapable of expressing myself without being completely misconstrued.

    If you feel you really need that strawman to beat on though, by all means go ahead.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  4. #6924

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Luca - This is like level-0 trolling. Trolling without awareness.

    @H - Your original post and your additional clarification points are mere tangents to Death and Taxes. Yes, on topic for "THC conversation" but this is the DnT thread. The source of the confusion: context muddled your message. "This card is at its best in this other deck" doesn't mean much in the Death and Taxes thread - maybe post it in Maverick or Soldier Stompy or White Eldrazi threads? Instead you could have written "I think this card may/may not be good in DnT for these reasons" and we would be moving the conversation along nicely.

    You're going deep on semantics to prove how you never misspoke - that's fine. But it's not helpful to this conversation. Can you guys write to each other in private messages instead? You can clarify your positions all you want there. Forums aren't great for two-way conversations.

    MOVING THE TOPIC ALONG: We do have some results - 2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar is recommended by those who have performed well in big events. Through BOTH of Medea's interviews, we see recommendations from each player for 2x THC. I intend to play with that configuration and move on from there. Has anyone else had results with double THC?

    One thing I keep coming back to - THC's "floor" is pretty high. The worst case scenario is that she's a 3/2 first strike for 2W, which isn't horrible - she holds equipment well. Thoughts on THC's floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I'm really not sure you do get what I am saying though, because that is neither what I said, nor what I meant. Including 2 is perfectly reasonable. I never said the anything about needing to be cast turn 2. I never said anything about being a lord and savior, nor did I imply it. I have no idea how saying something isn't at it's maximum potential is akin to saying it isn't worth playing. I guess my grasp of English has finally eluded me, so it's pointless to argue with what I never said and never implied.

    Could you point to the words that imply "don't bother playing her after turn 2" for me though? Because I have read my comment numerous times now and I can't figure how you draw that conclusion from what I said. In fact, I even said, "this doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all" and yet your take-away is still that I said she isn't worth running at all? I guess words don't mean what I think they mean, I assure you that after this, I will refrain from adding any as it seems I am incapable of expressing myself without being completely misconstrued.

    If you feel you really need that strawman to beat on though, by all means go ahead.

  5. #6925

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I've been testing 2x THC since she came out. My thoughts are that THC is a perfectly fine card, and if you want to include her in the deck its not a mistake.That said, after playing with her, I tend to evaluate her as a beater more than anything. I think that there are good reasons to run other beaters over her, depending on your meta. For me, she's been the worst beater to have against Tarmogoyf, I haven't been in love with how slow she is against Delver decks, and she has absolutely lost me games where they have access to Karakas, such as the mirror. I've liked her against Miracles as a beater I can protect with Karakas, and against decks that have a significant number of 3-4 drops she's definitely won me games.

    That being said, shutting off someones 4th land drop has very rarely been relevant, though wasting fetches has certainly been relevant. Combined with port/TGT/wasteland she's good, and when miss a land drop she's amazing. In most of those games, you're already winning. She's taken me from a winning position to a dominating position, but I've seldom had her take me from a losing position to one of equal footing or better. The floor on her is a creature that matches up poorly against large creatures. If I'm facing down Goyfs and Anglers, I would certainly prefer Avenger or Crusader. She can be underwhelming in a board stall if my opponent has established a large Pyromancer or Mentor army; she's a blocker but I've generally had trouble pushing her through.

  6. #6926

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    ahaha, i had a good laugh at this
    and you actually might be right. but i still think THC is pretty damn good and fits the deck very well.

  7. #6927
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2015
    Location

    NYC
    Posts

    1,328

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by WashableWater1 View Post
    I've been testing 2x THC since she came out. My thoughts are that THC is a perfectly fine card, and if you want to include her in the deck its not a mistake.That said, after playing with her, I tend to evaluate her as a beater more than anything. I think that there are good reasons to run other beaters over her, depending on your meta. For me, she's been the worst beater to have against Tarmogoyf, I haven't been in love with how slow she is against Delver decks, and she has absolutely lost me games where they have access to Karakas, such as the mirror. I've liked her against Miracles as a beater I can protect with Karakas, and against decks that have a significant number of 3-4 drops she's definitely won me games.

    That being said, shutting off someones 4th land drop has very rarely been relevant, though wasting fetches has certainly been relevant. Combined with port/TGT/wasteland she's good, and when miss a land drop she's amazing. In most of those games, you're already winning. She's taken me from a winning position to a dominating position, but I've seldom had her take me from a losing position to one of equal footing or better. The floor on her is a creature that matches up poorly against large creatures. If I'm facing down Goyfs and Anglers, I would certainly prefer Avenger or Crusader. She can be underwhelming in a board stall if my opponent has established a large Pyromancer or Mentor army; she's a blocker but I've generally had trouble pushing her through.
    This is the take I agree with the most so far, basically matches my experience.

    Not great vs. a fast Delver start, often terrible in the mirror, and awful vs decks that go big. She's a 'beater' in that she's a good clock on an empty board, so you want her vs. Miracles. She beats any of legacy's smaller creatures head to head - but incidentally, so does Thalia 1.0 because very few things are x/3. But she can't actually get past or block real beaters (Goyf/Angler/Batterskull/Eldrazi/KotR) whereas Mirran Crusader can since they're almost all B/G.

    Ultimately I think Frank's a flex card that might be fantastic in some metas but is also clearly not great in some, which is also something you can say about Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, Banisher Priest, Mangara, etc. People really want to find some optimal platonic build of the deck, but a. That doesn't exist, b. Your local meta is often not representative and C. The overall legacy meta isn't static either.

  8. #6928
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2014
    Location

    Central New York
    Posts

    175

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by WashableWater1 View Post
    I've been testing 2x THC since she came out. My thoughts are that THC is a perfectly fine card, and if you want to include her in the deck its not a mistake.That said, after playing with her, I tend to evaluate her as a beater more than anything. I think that there are good reasons to run other beaters over her, depending on your meta. For me, she's been the worst beater to have against Tarmogoyf, I haven't been in love with how slow she is against Delver decks, and she has absolutely lost me games where they have access to Karakas, such as the mirror. I've liked her against Miracles as a beater I can protect with Karakas, and against decks that have a significant number of 3-4 drops she's definitely won me games.
    Not to be that guy, but which Tarmo decks do you find her losing to? RUG? BUG delver? Shardless? I ask because I feel she's a difference-maker against pure UR delver but am yet to face Shardless with the new conspiracy cards.

    ...That being said, shutting off someones 4th land drop has very rarely been relevant, though wasting fetches has certainly been relevant. Combined with port/TGT/wasteland she's good, and when miss a land drop she's amazing. In most of those games, you're already winning. She's taken me from a winning position to a dominating position, but I've seldom had her take me from a losing position to one of equal footing or better. The floor on her is a creature that matches up poorly against large creatures. If I'm facing down Goyfs and Anglers, I would certainly prefer Avenger or Crusader. She can be underwhelming in a board stall if my opponent has established a large Pyromancer or Mentor army; she's a blocker but I've generally had trouble pushing her through.
    This is interesting. I agree with the last part about the token army thing. All the 3 drops except Flickerwisp suffer from a boardstate clogged with tokens. Flying over the stalemate is why I conceptually favor Avengers in the 60. But you haven't found yourself in positions to gang-block the mid-size Goyf? I've lived the dream a few times with dual Thalias. That seems to hold the fort against even Eldrazi. Have you been in positions where you couldn't use THC as the blocker ---> Karakas her back to hand --> Vial her back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Ultimately I think Frank's a flex card that might be fantastic in some metas but is also clearly not great in some, which is also something you can say about Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, Banisher Priest, Mangara, etc. People really want to find some optimal platonic build of the deck, but a. That doesn't exist, b. Your local meta is often not representative and C. The overall legacy meta isn't static either.
    Very true.

  9. #6929

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    as a DnT opponent I can tell that 3 strenght first striker are a serious issue against anyone. If equipped it's lethal on her own.

    Overall it also makes opponent desperate creature casting useless and with a Winter Orb she just freezes the game.

    Her best entry is when your opponent has still to develop his board. This card, alongside Magus of the Moon and the fact that this list packs 23 lands as a staple made me think of Mox Diamond.

    Turn 1 Thalia 1.0
    Turn 2 Thalia 2.0
    Turn 3 Karakas +.. really whatever at that point. You already have 4 turn clock with tempo on its own.

    Did some experienced player here try Winter Orb and Mox Diamond?

  10. #6930

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Warden View Post
    Not to be that guy, but which Tarmo decks do you find her losing to? RUG? BUG delver? Shardless? I ask because I feel she's a difference-maker against pure UR delver but am yet to face Shardless with the new conspiracy cards.
    In most of my matches against Shardless, she came down and was outclassed by Tarmogoyfs. The games where she was good were when they kept particularly slow draws, such as Shardless Agents without Deathrites.

    Against BUG Delver, she was not fast enough to race, was unable to disrupt them in any meaningful way, and got trumped by their bigger creatures or raced by Delvers/Deathrites. I havent played as much of this matchups.

    Against RUG Delver, I was able to ambush Gooses. This is the matchup where its easiest to get a RIP to stick, so I didn't actually mind her.

    Jund was similar to Shardless, but most games she would get killed by something before I could get a good read on her effect. I'd say thats probably a plus, but I would definitely have preferred Serra Avengers.

    This is interesting. I agree with the last part about the token army thing. All the 3 drops except Flickerwisp suffer from a boardstate clogged with tokens. Flying over the stalemate is why I conceptually favor Avengers in the 60. But you haven't found yourself in positions to gang-block the mid-size Goyf? I've lived the dream a few times with dual Thalias. That seems to hold the fort against even Eldrazi. Have you been in positions where you couldn't use THC as the blocker ---> Karakas her back to hand --> Vial her back in?
    Double Thalia is pretty nuts against RUG Delver or Eldrazi. Double blocking with them is usually good, but a lot of the time you have to worry about getting blown out by a removal spell. I think Eldrazi is one of the matchups where she's pretty decent, because they tend to need a lot of mana and I can run a very effective mana denial plan there.

    I've definitely brick walled one Goyf with the Karakas+Vial, but thats a temporary measure that gets broken up by Wasteland/Removal. I've also ended up facing down a second Goyf, and thats kind of lights out.

  11. #6931

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    Did some experienced player here try Winter Orb and Mox Diamond?
    I'm playing a list with 2x mox diamond, -1 Batterskull main, -1 CJ main. No orbs, and I won't try them. The Diamonds are fine, but Orb is janky even in theorycrafting, not even worth testing imo.

  12. #6932

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    why? it seems a natural fit instead.

    you break simmetry with Aether Vial Thalia 2.0, Mox Diamond and Rishadan Port as well as, in case, Ghost Quarter and Wasteland for the untapped

    Your Karakas plan become much weaker though..

  13. #6933
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2016
    Location

    Charlotte, NC
    Posts

    202

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Rishadan Port plan gets weaker with Orb, too. You need two lands to tap down their one land, and you'll only be able to untap one of them next turn.

  14. #6934

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    ..or 1 Rishadan and a Mox Diamond to hardlock him

  15. #6935

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    why? it seems a natural fit instead.

    you break simmetry with Aether Vial Thalia 2.0, Mox Diamond
    This sounds a bit merry Christmas land. On top of that, without Vial Winter Orb hurts us more than other decks because they usually run cards that are more mana efficient than ours. It is definitely not a natural fit.

  16. #6936
    Force of Will is my bitch
    Finn's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    South Florida
    Posts

    3,073

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ksmith View Post
    This sounds a bit merry Christmas land. On top of that, without Vial Winter Orb hurts us more than other decks because they usually run cards that are more mana efficient than ours. It is definitely not a natural fit.
    This is not true. Each card may cost 1 or 2, but half of those only find other cards, and you have TGT. Furthermore, Winter Orb, while not 1-sided, is a mere inconvenience for some decks while back breaking for others.

    Miracles, 12-Post, Lands. These board control decks that are very mana hungry are beaten hard by Winter Orb.

    Also, WashableWater1, I think we all appreciate your input. My own experiences with THC are somewhat different though.

    She dominates RUG. Dominates.
    She is very hard on Shardless, though not quite as oppressive.
    She is very hard on Eldrazi.
    She is very hard on Lands.
    She is decent against Miracles (I side 1 out)
    She is pertinent against Elves, and if you actually get to turn 3, she is the best 3-drop we have or could reasonably have.

    She is best on turn 3, but aren't you guys playing Wasteland, Port, Thalia?


    But honestly, Prelate has been the star for me of late.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  17. #6937
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2014
    Location

    Central New York
    Posts

    175

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Finn: Dumb question. Since I'm not on the winter orb plan, but you tickled my brain on it, how do you SB? Assuming you have a pair? I'm wondering what you trade out against Miracles and Lands in particular if you have Orbs.

  18. #6938

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Miracles, 12-Post, Lands. These board control decks that are very mana hungry are beaten hard by Winter Orb.
    Speaking as a 12-Post player, I often wonder where people get the impression that Winter Orb is the nuts in that matchup. The deck plays lands that tap for multiple mana and Candelabra. Sure, it interacts with 12-Posts plan, but it has much less of an impact as a hate piece than against Miracles or Lands. Especially as D&T with Orb in play looses the ability to use Rishadan Port, which can also be a relevant form of interaction (at least until Candel is on the field).

  19. #6939

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Just wanted to add in that I have been less than impressed by THC. She was amazing in the DNT mirror (unless they had Karakas); but I find that the number of creature-based mirrors I'm playing is pretty small...

    Most games I feel like a Wingmare would be better at impacting the board-state and (given it's flying) better able to attack [ as a 3-drop ].

    Meanwhile the number of games that just end on t3 when I play sanctum prelate continues to impress me. Of course there's a card that's essentially dead in a creature-mirror.

  20. #6940

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is not true. Each card may cost 1 or 2, but half of those only find other cards, and you have TGT. Furthermore, Winter Orb, while not 1-sided, is a mere inconvenience for some decks while back breaking for others.

    Miracles, 12-Post, Lands. These board control decks that are very mana hungry are beaten hard by Winter Orb.
    If we have TGT and Winter Orb in play, they probably have at least DRS or Delver, don't forget that Daze is also a mini combo with Winter Orb. On top of that, we can probably forget Stoneforge + equipment with Winter Orb.

    If we have active Vial things change, but there are too many ifs to make Winter Orb an auto include. From it's effect it reminds me of and could be a replacement for Cataclysm. It would be boarded in against similar decks as well (as you said Miracle, Lands...).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)