[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Luca Grease]

I quoted this post because it represents a strong emotional response to criticism. Rather than postulate as to why THC may not have made the cut and discussing that, it resorts to dismissive and thought-killing arguments. Sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and ignoring data that contradicts what we hold to be true is not how we delve to the facts concerning the matter at hand..

Wait, what? Is this Bizarro world or something? Jesus, has the quality of the discussion ITT plummeted recently, or has it been this way for a while, and I am realizing just now?

My "strong emotional response", as you called it, was merely pointing out the logical fallacy of what the poster I quoted said by explaining some undeniable facts, namely:

1 - saying "X placing list didn't play card Y, so card Y must have been bad in that meta" is a completely unwarranted assumption. In order to say that, we'd have to know what the number of DnT lists were in that event, how many of them played THC and how those lists did. Even then, other factors (player skill, luck, other card choices) would explain most of the variance, and we could only draw reliable conclusions by averaging results from a much larger sample. However, even if we wanted to extrapolate something from this tournament only, we absolutely cannot do it because we don't have any of the aforementioned data.

2 - Speaking of missing data, we don't even know how many players were in this tournament, which is obviously a critical factor when evaluating a result. Some of these SCG side events have been getting pretty small: 14th out of 50 players isn't all that impressive, really...

Fine, you might say, but do we need to conduct a variance analysis with data from hundreds of tournaments and thousands of lists in order to be able to evaluate every single card? Of course not (although a little more prudence wouldn't hurt most posters), which is why people will generally form an opinion by a) testing and b) studying successful lists and hearing what those pilots have to say. Well, we don't know why those pilots chose not to play THC, and, more importantly, we don't know whether we can consider them successful. Certainly not as successful as the only pilots who have recently top-8ed large, competitive legacy events with DnT lists running THC. If you're into overinterpreting single tournament results, you should definitely start from there. Or perhaps YOU are cherry picking the results that fit your preconceived idea...

All in all, I truly don't see how my clear, logical points could be misconstrued as "dismissive and thought-killing arguments", and I would truly like the opinion of other posters on this.

Oh and by the way, the "frank" joke is getting old, fast. It was funny the first time, and the point behind it was legitimate (although not nearly as pertinent as some of its proponents might think). Now it has gotten lame, with a bunch of posters ironically using it to derail all objective discussion about the card into "lulz you guyz are only playing the card cause it's called Thalia...". No, seriously, we aren't. You can drop the psychoanalysis already, it's making you sound dull and moronic.

[Koby]

Frank is Thalia, Heretic Cathar.

Iatee was making a point that people would be a lot more skeptical if Thalia, Heretic Cathar had been named Frank, Heretic Cathar, because the mental association with an already existing 4 of clouded people's judgment when evaluating THC for the deck. People started calling her Frank after that.

Finally a reasonable person. THC is too expensive at 3 mana to be playable as a viable strategy akin to Prison in D&T. Accelerating her out works better. Better yet, splash Green for Root Maze; which sees zero play.

[Warden]

...
Ugh, just saw the 0 Cavern of Souls in the mono white list, and only 1 in the red splash list... Not a fan of some of these choices at all, I wonder whether they were dictated by card availability issues... Overall, the placing list from Ovino XI and BoM look a lot more polished...

@R/W list: I found this comment interesting. I said it a few pages back -- the splash lists cannot run off so many colorless lands. I'm actually surprised he doesn't trade in a canopy or waste for another fetch or dual tbh. His list needs some amount of red-producing lands. To push for more Caverns would be a mistake...it would force the list to live or dies with cavern or vial @3 in play. Too risky.
His Sharpshooter in the SB is actually really interesting. I'd be curious to hear how that worked out IRL because on paper I think it's beyond my personal risk-reward boundaries.

@THC discussion: We've gotten out of hand. @Luca says it best in his most recent post (above).

[Luca Grease]

@R/W list: I found this comment interesting. I said it a few pages back -- the splash lists cannot run off so many colorless lands. I'm actually surprised he doesn't trade in a canopy or waste for another fetch or dual tbh. His list needs some amount of red-producing lands. To push for more Caverns would be a mistake...it would force the list to live or dies with cavern or vial @3 in play. Too risky.
His Sharpshooter in the SB is actually really interesting. I'd be curious to hear how that worked out IRL because on paper I think it's beyond my personal risk-reward boundaries.

@THC discussion: We've gotten out of hand. @Luca says it best in his most recent post (above).

In most W/R lists, Cavern of souls was effectively a red-producing land, since the red cards were mostly humans (Recruiter, Magus). Goblin sharpshooter aside (which could be subbed for one of the multiple available human pingers) an extra Cavern is in no way riskier than an extra Plateau when it comes to being able to cast his red creatures. Sure he also has the singleton Sudden Demise, but Cavern will cast his Warping Wail so that pretty much evens out.
I totally agree that Horizon Canopy should have been a different land, but cutting a Wasteland? Hell no.

Anyway, we are spending way too much time pondering over a list that probably went 4-2 at best. Way more than we did over lists that actually top-8ed 200ish player events, and all because someone wasn't really good at statistical inference, and a bunch of other posters feel really smart cause they think they've discovered this massive irrational bias that is clouding everybody else's judgement... Let's just move on, please.

[Whitefaces]

#jesuisfrank

[iatee]

[Luca Grease]

^^

I'm a photoshop illiterate, but you should cross out the turn 3 part and replace it with "only on turn 2 through acceleration...".

[iatee]

All I can say is...I did it my way.

[Finn]

All I can say is...I did it my way.

Heh, I like the humor of this entire quip a lot. You are showing your age. I wonder how many people will know what the hell you are talking about.


But I wonder deep down if we are all playing this deck the same way.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I finally got my list built, and I played it last night in a little 3-round "get your area into legacy" grinder at my LGS. 5 of the 8 players there were from my team...

G1: Played against a non-team member without any legacy experience or cards for that matter. I slaughtered his b/w all basics list, keeping him off white for the entire game with a port, eventually using Mangara to snipe every last land he played and won two points of damage at a time.

G2: Not for sure how this went other than about the exact same kind of thrashing, just using different cards.

2-0 in games, 1-0 in matches


round 2: Sneak 'n Show

G1: I keep him off kilter without really knowing what he's on, at first I thought it was UR Delver with a bad draw, since my meta didn't have this in it until just here. Anyway, late into the game, turn 10 maybe? I've applied pressure and disruption and he finally fires off a Show and Tell. I say okay and lay a Thalia 2.0 down. His choice? Sneak Attack. He scoops.

G2: I lay an early Prelate down on 3 and he doesn't do much. I double down on Prelate on 3, and keep swinging. He plays blood moon, I point to the two Prelates and that's the game.


4-0 in games, 2-0 in matches.

I finally lost to lands, but I mulled to 6 one game and 5 another. I did get 1 win in off of the back of a Prelate on 2. The game I mulled to 5 on I only saw one land. Against 4 ports, that's not gonna cut it.

Tied for first with the lands player. 5-2 record on the night.

I really like this deck and can't imagine not playing it full time. Thanks, guys, and especially you, Finn. I love your deck.

-ABC

[zebotc]

Have we ever considered maze of ith as a possible land to run? It seems like it might be alright but the fact it can't produce mana also makes it seem like it's not the best choice, maybe worth a try though as a 1-2 of.

[MasterBlaster]

Have we ever considered maze of ith as a possible land to run? It seems like it might be alright but the fact it can't produce mana also makes it seem like it's not the best choice, maybe worth a try though as a 1-2 of.

Only with a way to tutor it up reliably. But we are already running equipment tutors and creature tutors in the deck. Just doesn't fit in D&T as I see it.

[mykatdied]

Could run weathered wayfarer, but that just seems cute and slow and doesn't help against a true name nemesis which is usually the only creature that I'm concerned with stopping. Marit Lage could be something you want to stop, but most decks that make a Marit Lage won't give us the chance to get a non basic to stick and stop that

[Penguinizer]

I don't really care for Eiganjo Castle. I think its only useful application is protecting a Thalia 2.0 from lightning bolt, and that's fairly lackluster as far as interactions go, especially when Karakas is already a thing. I think 4 ports are really important. Any particular reason you aren't trying out the prelates?

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I don't have prelates since buying Thalia 2.0s and Recruiters put a hurting on my budget. I'll get them at some point, but probably not for the tournament. I'm wondering if Wilt-Leaf's are even worth considering at this point. Too slow to deal with Dread of Night. That's pretty much one of my biggest issues that I'm trying to figure out a workaround for.

[Whitefaces]

I don't have prelates since buying Thalia 2.0s and Recruiters put a hurting on my budget. I'll get them at some point, but probably not for the tournament. I'm wondering if Wilt-Leaf's are even worth considering at this point. Too slow to deal with Dread of Night. That's pretty much one of my biggest issues that I'm trying to figure out a workaround for.

Veteran Armorer or Leonin Relic Warder are both ways around Dread of Night that Recruiter can search for.

[Finn]

Veteran Armorer or Leonin Relic Warder are both ways around Dread of Night that Recruiter can search for.

I ditched the Armorer idea since we got Prelate. It does nothing at all against Massacre. Of our pertinent hate, Dread of Night really only kills TGT, so it just does not seem as good any more.

[Colin]

I keep checking back, but the shit posting (that usually avoids this thread) is pretty rank right now.

I'm traveling to Eternal Weekend and I need my practice.

I'm still grinding.

I'm still on 2 recruiters, and I'm set on 2 prelate main / 1 board. Prelate. Is. Backbreaking. Recruiter is too, but shines brightest in those long matches where you're seeing them late.

Thalia Hi-C (the orange drank of choice) is a 2 of and I'm sticking to it. The 1-sidedness of this card is simply amazing. I haven't seen many people comment on this, but the real hurt for your opponent is that you get to sneak extra damage in. With her on board, I get so many extra little shots in with Revokers, prelates and Thalia 2.0 that would usually be just sitting and staring across the board at goyfs.

For so many decks in legacy that leverage life as a resource, this is huge. I've had more games where opponents have to worry about fetching into lethal range than i can keep track of.

4 Stoneforge to capitalize off of the aggressiveness that is Thalia Hi-C. People either remove her or start playing around her. Around her is the "long game" where SFM shines.

4 Flickewisp. End of story for me.

MONO WHITE

4 Mother OR
4 Thalia GT
4 Stone FM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Swords TP
4 Aether V

3 Revoker

2 Recruiter
2 Prelate
2 Thalia Hi-C

1 Mirran

1 Jitte
1 Batterskul
1 Sword of F&I

9 plains
4 wasteland
4 Ports
3 Karakas
2 caverns
1 Flagstones


Sideboard:
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn
3 RIP
1 Manriki
2 Path to Exile
1 mangara
1 Cataclysm
1 Armegeddon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 ALWAYS IN FLUX (probably default to Wiltleaf or another flyer)


I'm playing R/W long and controlly. It's boring as hell but super consistent. I almost never search up anything but flickerwisps or displacer in a vacuum. All the other targets are basically auto selects dependent on the game. Displacer is a must-answer if it resolves and is easily (IMO) the best card against Shardless or miracles if it gets to do its thing. Sudden demise is a 2 of because it's awesome and I can't tutor it

I'm using path to exile in both build because Iatee started the "Center for decks that cant removal good and want to do other stuff good too".

And I attended.

R/W Taxes

4 Mother OR
4 Thalia GT
4 Swords TP
4 Aether Vial

3 Stone FM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Recuiter oTG

2 Revoker
2 Prelate

1 eldrazi displacer
1 mangara
1 Magus oTM
1 Mirran
1 Pia & Kirran

1 Jitte
1 Batterskul
1 Sword of F&I

5 fetch
3 plains
2 plateau
4 wasteland
4 Ports
3 Karakas
2 caverns



Sideboard:
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn
2 RIP
1 Manriki
1 Path to Exile
2 sudden Demise
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 Gideon Ally
1 Cataclysm
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 ALWAYS IN FLUX (probably default to mirran/brimaz or another flyer)

Both lists are solid, good in an open meta and put me in the W bracket more than my play skill warrants.

FYI Most of my testing is against legacy-only players and at home, so we can stop a game midway and discuss tactics etc. Some online. A few 15-20 person tournaments.

If you have questions on card selection (mostly #'s I'd bet) I'd love to talk about them. If you're going to tell me I'm a bad player and I should feel bad, maybe just argue with the other people

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm not super concerned about Dread of Night. 2x sucks, but I play 2x Relic-Warder in my 75 as well as 2x CJ. I feel confident that I can play around the first DoN, and deal with 1x if they get a second down. If they play 3 AND get them all in one game, that's variance and you should start praying to their God instead of your current one.

Massacre. If it becomes more popular, it's probably not a popular idea, but there are 2x things I have thought about. First, I'll drop my basic Plains count and move to some number of Flagstones and Horizon canopies so as not to turn on its free mode if at all possible, and then also there is Warping Wail that counters sorceries. I'm sure this will not be a popular idea as it'll cost 3 to do that with a Thalia out and requires a colorless source, which is more difficult than I thought it would be.

Edit: I'm wrong, lol, if my answer is Relic-Warder then I must deal with the first one or else I am unable to deal with the second one.

What should a sideboard have in it? Props if you know local Denver meta, lol.

Here is my list, I suppose. Some of you guys won't like it, I think. Anyway:

3x Mom
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x TGT
3x Revoker
3x SFM
1x Mangara
1x Mirran Crusader
2x THC
3x Recruiter OTG
2x Prelate
3x Flickerwisp
1x SoFI
1x Jitte
4x StP
4x Aether Vial
2x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Port
3x Karakas
3x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

My sideboard isn't finished, but what I've put together so far is:

2x Canonist
2x E. Tutor
2x RIP
1x Magus of the Moon
2x CJ
1x Relic-Warder
1x Cataclysm
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x THC
1x Prelate
1x Batterskull

[zebotc]

I'm not super concerned about Dread of Night. 2x sucks, but I play 2x Relic-Warder in my 75 as well as 2x CJ. I feel confident that I can play around the first DoN, and deal with 1x if they get a second down. If they play 3 AND get them all in one game, that's variance and you should start praying to their God instead of your current one.

Massacre. If it becomes more popular, it's probably not a popular idea, but there are 2x things I have thought about. First, I'll drop my basic Plains count and move to some number of Flagstones and Horizon canopies so as not to turn on its free mode if at all possible, and then also there is Warping Wail that counters sorceries. I'm sure this will not be a popular idea as it'll cost 3 to do that with a Thalia out and requires a colorless source, which is more difficult than I thought it would be.

Edit: I'm wrong, lol, if my answer is Relic-Warder then I must deal with the first one or else I am unable to deal with the second one.

What should a sideboard have in it? Props if you know local Denver meta, lol.

Here is my list, I suppose. Some of you guys won't like it, I think. Anyway:

3x Mom
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x TGT
3x Revoker
3x SFM
1x Mangara
1x Mirran Crusader
2x THC
3x Recruiter OTG
2x Prelate
3x Flickerwisp
1x SoFI
1x Jitte
4x StP
4x Aether Vial
2x Mox Diamond
4x Wasteland
4x Port
3x Karakas
3x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

My sideboard isn't finished, but what I've put together so far is:

2x Canonist
2x E. Tutor
2x RIP
1x Magus of the Moon
2x CJ
1x Relic-Warder
1x Cataclysm
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x THC
1x Prelate
1x Batterskull

As far as sideboarding goes it's really meta dependent. I used to be a long time advocate of running E tutor in the sideboard but recently I've been starting to think it's not that good. My whole reasoning for it was it allows all of our sideboard options to basically be a 3-4 of but I'm not sure it's really necessary anymore our plans against decks that it would be useful are already fairly consistent and especially since you are already running ROTG it might be better to put more tutorable creatures or maybe some Gideon's there depending on your meta.

How has Mox diamond been working for you? I'm still really on the fence about that card but I think it has its place in the right build perhaps.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

For me, I enjoy the Tutors. They give me additional ways to get equipment, they are excellent against discard as well as helpful in finding a Revoker earlier against Miracles so they don't get too far ahead.

So, I guess Diamond has been fine, like other said I've only played around 5 matches with the deck. I did get to go t1 Thalia, t2 Thalia 2.0. That was game.

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