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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #7061
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.
    She helps stop the "surprise" blockers that Mentor can generate from instant spells. It helped me win a game once, but I was already pretty far ahead. Prelate on 1 would likely have a similar - if not better - effect on token generation in general, anyways, as it is beneficial in each player's turn for us.

  2. #7062

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.
    Because Miracles wants to use their flash creatures (including angels token from an entreat during your attack phase) to surprise block your creatures. Also, Miracles is a mana hungry deck that plays a lot of fetchlands, which it will use to shuffle their library to get fresh looks with top. Also, being able to protect it with Karakas is the shizzles. So yea, Thalia 2.0 is quite good against Miracles.

    As for Sneak Attack, making them wait a turn is often good enough. Plus, as someone else pointed out, a Karakas will seal the deal.

  3. #7063

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Well karakas doesn't seal the deal. But if we can at least stop emrakul from getting in we're usually fine. End of turn emrakul plus Griselbrand could be tough since we have to make emrakul not attack and board wipe us, plus hopefully find a way to answer Griselbrand before it attacks. My main concern against sneak and show these days is omniscience especially if they have emrakul in habd.

  4. #7064
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    My main concern with SnS is 'Not getting paired vs it often enough.'

  5. #7065

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I agree iatee. I went down to 1 main, 1 board because of this, adding a single copy of Aven Mindcensor. I play against Delver more than Miracles, though. Only one person plays SnS here, and again, it's the omni hybrid, so it's also worse than normal. I think the best thing to do for this particular matchup is sanctum on 3 and Revoker on sneak attack.

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  6. #7066

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by mykatdied View Post
    Well karakas doesn't seal the deal. But if we can at least stop emrakul from getting in we're usually fine. End of turn emrakul plus Griselbrand could be tough since we have to make emrakul not attack and board wipe us, plus hopefully find a way to answer Griselbrand before it attacks. My main concern against sneak and show these days is omniscience especially if they have emrakul in habd.
    I'm assuming we are talking about Omni-Sneak here because regular Sneak and Show can draw all the cards it wants, it' still not beating Thalia 2.0 + Karakas, at least in game 1. Even then, for Sneak Attack to do something against THC + Karakas that requires: resolve sneak attack -> pass. Untap, leave 2 red mana up (pretty hard) -> pass. At your eot, deploy Emmy and Grizzy, untap, Emmy gets bounced, swing in with Grizzy, draw into SnT + Omniscience (or whatever they were missing), combo out. All with their fetches, volcs and sol lands entering the battlefield tapped. It would literally take you to have nothing for that to work, I guess...

    But yea, between Canonist, Prelate, mana denial, and most of our other creatures doing at least something against them, Omni-Sneak is not a matchup I particularly mind...

  7. #7067

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I don't play Containment Priest due to the dissynergy of it and vial. It feels bad. Maybe if I played a version that ran multiple Displacers, but then I think I would just play Thalia stompy.

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  8. #7068

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I don't generally mind it either, unless they have "the nuts" like turn 1 or 2 show and tell into omni cast emrakul. If they have that there really isn't much we can do. That's when I have begun to dislike the match up.

  9. #7069

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Bkclassic
    That list is sick. I'd be tempted to try to run something similar this weekend for EE, given the huge prevalence of Lands in the region.

  10. #7070

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Link?

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  11. #7071

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Link?

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    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13685&d=280621&f=LE

  12. #7072
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    What's your current list Finn? I can't compromise playing prelate, recruiter, and THC so I'm wondering what you got going on.
    Marungo, my list is on the OP. I have been largely satisfied with it. I grumble about the slowness of Recruiter at times. I lament only having two Revokers in the main. And I am constantly questioning if the single Banisher Priest is better off as Mangara of Corondor. Mangara is a potential brilliant tutor-for answer as you can imagine. But I have found that the slowdown of the deck tends to require answers NOW. And Mangara requires an extra untap. This is annoying because obviously he is the stronger card. I would like very much to improve this, and I consider the next big advantage card for D+T to be something like a white Llanowar Elf or better yet, an Eldrazi Temple for white creatures or humans or something like that. With such a card, we could profitably include a variety of stronger turn 2 and 3 control cards because we would not be trying to control from behind.

    On another note, I have an idea I have been kicking around. I want to make a simple chart that shows how highly we, the community value particular cards in a particular matchup. When completed, it should be a valuable tool for sideboarding decisions, and we may each learn some things. At the minimum, it should be fun for us. One thing, and this is important; if you are not actually experienced with a particular card/matchup, please do not post a number. Other comments are fine, but I will be tallying numbers for an average. The specific point of the exercise is to get some metrics. Conversation is the strong point of these threads, while real numbers are hard to come by. As soon as we get speculation, it is ruined. So again...

    If you are not experienced with a particular card/matchup, do not post a number.

    To participate, just give a number from 1-10, (ten being the best) for how "good" a card tends to be in a particular matchup. "Good" is a terribly subjective word, so think about these adjectives to help you formalize your opinion:

    instrumental
    effective
    potent
    useful
    applicable
    powerful
    convenient
    practical
    serviceable

    -or possibly even-

    overtaking
    game-changing
    pwnage

    ...etc.

    You may even be faced with situations like cards being excellent in matchups sometimes and nearly useless at others. Just do your best to aggregate these ideas into a number. Feel free to discuss the reasons for your rating, too. You may even decide to change your number after your peers have had a crack at your reasoning, but try not to be swayed by the conversation at large - only the conversation pertaining to your rating. The numbers are supposed to be complementary to the conversation, not be an extension of it.

    So, without further ado, I will begin with an easy one:

    Aether Vial vs. Miracles - 10
    Aether Vial occasionally feels like a worse land when drawn late in any matchup, but landing that on turn one against Miracles basically pushes that game solidly in your favor like no other matchup. I have had Miracles hit it on turn 3 with Council's Judgement...typically when a player spends three mana on a sorcery for spot removal on something I have had for several turns already, I feel like it is one of those tiny victories that this deck thrives on. But Vial is so good in this matchup (and Judgment is their only answer), that I actually lament losing the vial that way. I will even happily take two of them.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-12-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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  13. #7073
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    A playable one mana white mana dork would be a complete break with the colorpie, someone would probably have to actually kill Maro. They don't even like giving green them anymore due to the effect it has on standard.

    Another playable Sol land is also extremely unlikely. The most recent Sol lands (Eldrazi) were never meant to be fast early game mana, they were late game mana for casting your 10 drops - they only became fast mana accidentally. Sol lands (and fast mana in general) are horrible mistakes and Wizards knows not to make them anymore - the last time they purposely made a Sol land was what, 10 years ago? Most of the mistakes they make these days come from mana-replacement mechanics (Aether Vial, Phyrexian Mana, Delve) rather than giving us actual fast mana cards.

    New cards for the deck that could actually get printed in the next few years are a RIP style bear and a better disenchant bear. Maybe another good Flicker effect on a creature.

  14. #7074

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @BKclassic
    Indeed, sweet list, nice meta call.

    @Medea_
    Prolly see you there this weekend. I am as combo-proofed as I can get and I expect a lot of the mirror early. Miracles is, well, Miracles. It will come down to skill vs. skill, but we are much better positioned than previously.

    I am most worried about the various Eldrazi builds, especially the new Mono-W replacing Kavu with Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, since it passes right through Mom and is a much better beater (since it's ability target creature opponent controls, not any creature, each time it attacks, not just when it enters, and it can't die to Containment Priest, since it does not enter as a creature even if you blink it as a creature with Displacer. It literally is just a machine-gun. A 6/5, flying machine-gun.

  15. #7075
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.

    EDIT: Iatee, Deathrite Shaman is an example of a mana creature for black. They may do it as a gimmick as a hybrid card like that. We have had this conversation a few times in the past about Imperial Recruiter for white. Some people felt it was outside the color pie. Forever is a long time. I can wait.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
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    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  16. #7076

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    10. I think that Vial is a little less important if you also play multiple Caverns, but end of their turning your creatures for quasi haste is pretty good.

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  17. #7077

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.
    Thanks, I was honestly a bit confused.

    I think we should still establish a description of what each number represents - for some, a 10 will be a card that basically win the game single-handedly if unanswered (see Thalia vs Storm), others will be more generous with their ratings, assigning top marks to any card that should never be sided out in that particular matchup, and so on...

    I'd suggest something like (on a 5-points scale cause I'm lazy):

    5 - This card is an all-star in this match-up, you should NEVER side it out, and should bring in any additional copies you might have. You don't mind seeing it in multiples, either cause it stacks or because you are usually winning as long as one copy sticks/resolves.
    4 - This card is very strong in the MU, and you probably shouldn't side out any copies. It will almost never be dead and it is unlikely to be neutered by sideboard hate that also hits a large portion of your deck.
    3 - This card has its applications in the MU, but it requires certain conditions to be good. Post side, it might not match particularly well against their expected sideboarding plan, and should be considered as a side-out option.
    2 - Although this card is not completely dead, it does very little, and matches up poorly against their general strategy. Its usefulness does not improve post-board, and should be sided out if possible.
    1 - This card does nothing. You should have something to side in for this.

    Obviously, this is only a rough draft, but hopefully it will give the general idea. If deemed necessary, we might expand the list with up to 10 ratings.

    Anyway, Aether Vial against Miracles:10

    Not much to add to what Finn said here. Everything about this card is good against Miracles: the uncounterability, the mana cheating (allowing you to use your lands to attack their mana), the instant speed deployment (for tricks and surprise attacks). They will try to get rid of it anyway they can, and it should speak volumes about the power of the card in this MU that most prominent Miracle pilots will dedicate most of their anti-DnT sideboard slots to cards that can deal with it.

  18. #7078
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Dunno if I was clear on my intention. I am seeking a rating by all of you, starting with Aether Vial vs. miracles.

    EDIT: Iatee, Deathrite Shaman is an example of a mana creature for black. They may do it as a gimmick as a hybrid card like that. We have had this conversation a few times in the past about Imperial Recruiter for white. Some people felt it was outside the color pie. Forever is a long time. I can wait.
    As an open ended creature tutor, Imperial Recruiter was out of the colorpie for *red* not for white. That's one of the reasons Imperial Recruiter was so powerful for a red deck like Painter. White has a lot of tutor effects on bodies, so this wasn't some radical new type of card, just a fairly pushed one.

    DRS is a B/G manadork, but you can play it with a very light investment in green. That's one of the reasons why it's the most powerful 1 drop in legacy, single-handedly disrupted the format, and was ban-worthy in modern (the format Wizards care about more.) I don't think we can expect more Deathrite Shamans. The Modern banlist is a pretty good indicator for cards they don't want to make. If you're willing to splash green, Noble Hierarch is a very pushed manadork that produces white. Maybe one day they'll print a G/W dork that's more powerful than Noble Hierarch and doesn't actually require G, but...I would be willing to bet against it.

    On the other hand, they'll reprint pretty much any artifact/enchantment we want as a 2/2. Think up some good ones and you'll get them eventually.

  19. #7079
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Re: Deathrite Shaman being allowed to generate mana in Black. Because it generates mana utilizing resources in the graveyard, it's not a color pie break, but a very clever bend. If WotC could find a white way to justify mana generation, then it could work. The closest thing I can think of is Weathered Wayfarer.

    In my local meta, I'm seeing a lot of Maverick and I don't know what to do. Sometimes it feels like they're just a stronger version of our deck. They have a lot of things that blow up equipment and vials. Which cards are strong against Maverick? How do I play this matchup? What do I board in?
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  20. #7080
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Maverick is basically a worse version of DnT, not a better one. But you can get midranged-out by fair decks if you don't draw enough grindy fair cards.

    Play lots of Mirran Crusaders, Revokers in main. More Removal/Disenchant/Needle effects out of the board. I don't love RiP since it doesn't completely shut down their deck and they have lots of disenchant effects anyway if they do need to get rid of it.

    Board out all Thalias, especially Thalia 1.0, since they play Karakas, ramp, and are creature-based. Prelates aren't going to be amazing either, though Prelate on 2 stops a lot of their scariest cards post-board (Zealous, Decay.) Try to get them to use their removal and disenchant effects on the wrong things (e.g. Batterskull not Jitte) since they're guaranteed to be drawing into a certain number. They have at most one flyer in the deck, so Flickerwisps (and any other flyers you play) are essentially unblockable. Save your removal for KotR if possible.

    Keep Sofi in even though the protections don't do anything, the games are grindy, you might need to Revoker Jitte and you want as many ways to grind out an advantage as possible.

    Try to figure out if they're playing Dark Depths just so you don't lose to it out of nowhere. But the variant that does is probably a better matchup, since we have so many ways to interact with the combo and it means their manabase is worse.

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