[Deck] Death and Taxes

[TLK]

Played in a local 3-round Legacy event last night running the colorless list that won the recent online challenge.

Round 1 vs Burn:

Ancient Tombs are obviously bad in this instance. I lose game 1 by getting blown out by Price of Progress the turn after I hardcasted Batterskull. Game 2 I get a turn 2 Chalice, followed by Thalia, Canonist and Stoneforge. Easy. Game 3 I mull to 5 and keep a 3 colorless land hand, Vial and Chalice. She mulls to 5 as well, but I never draw a white source and lose.

0-1, 1-2

Round 2 vs Dark Maverick:

Easy win both games. I get the Displacer/Flickerwisp and Priest lock for all his threats.

1-1, 2-0

Round 3 vs Shardless BUG:

Drew like garbage, and he drew really well. Never felt close, and also felt short on white sources. His Wastelands were more potent against this build than a regular mono white version.

1-2, 0-2

All in all, I didn't like the mana base of this version. Seemed way too light on white sources, and the Ancient Tombs dealing fringe damage made matchups like Burn worse.

[Medea_]

@Cringe

I actually wrote an article on that.

[rostov]

Thanks Medea. My young one has run the gauntlet tests and is nearly finished finalizing his deck. Currently going with WW, but very interesting take: no phyrexian revokers ("yeah, sneak attack'll kill me") but very aggro (serra avengers and mirran crusaders). I note that in your article, the BW list has no phyerexian revokers either. What are the major downsides not having it?

Also, I've been silently editting my selfish nervous breakdown post, and May results are trickling in but DnT made DtB's :)

[ChrisCunningham]

OK, my script for D&T mana is complete-for-now. It also handles decks without vial, and decks with double casting cost (like 1WW), which is useful for benchmarking.

To give you an idea of what kind of numbers I was able to get, the "success rates" for various decks in various situations are in the google doc:

Script you can run yourself: https://repl.it/IXTG/38

Spreadsheet of some tabulated results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing.

You can use the script to try out your own mana bases too now (even for limited decks), if you like and compare how it goes against the benchmarks in the above spreadsheet. "Success rate" means the percentage of hands where, assuming you mulligan hands with uncastable vials or no mana sources but do not pay attention to the colors of lands in your hand, you will be able to cast your spells on curve.

I would also be very interested in someone proposing a manabase for Bahra's list that includes a Scrubland so we could run it through the calculator here. But I don't know what to cut to make room for it.

--

The manabases I used were:

"12 plains benchmark"

12 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

"Bahra Wrb"

4 Cavern of Souls (I counted this as a source for every human)
2 Flooded Strand (I counted this as a WR land)
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath (I counted this as a WR land)

"Greedy Splash" (from the 3 cavern list here that started me down the path of writing this script)

3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

"8-1/2 Tails" (from "WW D&T" at http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1066)

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains

[Medea_]

@rostov

You lose some percentage points to combo with Revoker. Shutting off things like Sneak Attack, LED, and Food Chain is game-changing. You also lose points against other Stoneforge decks, as you will have fewer ways to deal with opposing equipment.

@chriscunningham
On 24 lands, this is what I tried with the Scrub:

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Scrubland
1 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
3 Plateau
2 Karakas

[Snickelfritz]

I'm suddenly planning to go to GP Vegas on short notice, and this is one of my two primary Legacy decks (along with Elves). I haven't been able to play much lately, so given the short time I have to prepare is there a relatively quick "primer" somewhere for what has changed with the deck(/format) since the recent banning?
Or at least what page number I could go to in this thread to start reading up on everyone's thoughts? I don't have time to read back through much, but I would like to get in whatever preparation I can.

[Copperhead]

I'm suddenly planning to go to GP Vegas on short notice, and this is one of my two primary Legacy decks (along with Elves). I haven't been able to play much lately, so given the short time I have to prepare is there a relatively quick "primer" somewhere for what has changed with the deck(/format) since the recent banning?
Or at least what page number I could go to in this thread to start reading up on everyone's thoughts? I don't have time to read back through much, but I would like to get in whatever preparation I can.

You should review Medea's posts on www.thrabenuniversity.com regarding the Top banning and the environment since that point. He's written at least four major posts. A lot of card choices are in flux, of course, but it depends a lot on what you expect to see and your play style. (What's new about Legacy, right??)

[Whole]

hey y'all, I've been lurking here since December when I was preparing for my first legacy GP (and tournament in general) at Louisville. I went 11-4 after facing elves 3 times, so I consider it a great performance. Thanks for that. So I'm prepping for GP Vegas now and I'm playing Bahra's Mardu list. Like most I was skeptical at first, but I bit the bullet and bought the deck on MTGO to try it out. Despite its gimmicks, I really like the deck. For every awkward draw it has, I have 2 or 3 games where the red cards are absolutely game winning. http://i.imgur.com/JUiJ8OW.jpg]List for reference

So I'm posting here to flesh out my last few sideboard slots. Bahra has Mindbreak Trap for the MTGO meta, but I'm not sure any copies will be necessary for the GP. I think I definitely want 1 Leonin Relic-Warder in the sideboard as it was amazing for me in Louisville, but I'm not sure what the other two cards should be. I'm extremely out of touch with legacy so any help would be appreciated. I'm not sure how much it matters, but I have 3 byes for the event, so I guess I'm much less likely to face decks like Burn and whatnot

Also I'm curious as to why people are moving away from Sanctum Prelate. I guess it is just redundant with Chalice?

[Medea_]

hey y'all, I've been lurking here since December when I was preparing for my first legacy GP (and tournament in general) at Louisville. I went 11-4 after facing elves 3 times, so I consider it a great performance. Thanks for that. So I'm prepping for GP Vegas now and I'm playing Bahra's Mardu list. Like most I was skeptical at first, but I bit the bullet and bought the deck on MTGO to try it out. Despite its gimmicks, I really like the deck. For every awkward draw it has, I have 2 or 3 games where the red cards are absolutely game winning. http://i.imgur.com/JUiJ8OW.jpg]List for reference

So I'm posting here to flesh out my last few sideboard slots. Bahra has Mindbreak Trap for the MTGO meta, but I'm not sure any copies will be necessary for the GP. I think I definitely want 1 Leonin Relic-Warder in the sideboard as it was amazing for me in Louisville, but I'm not sure what the other two cards should be. I'm extremely out of touch with legacy so any help would be appreciated. I'm not sure how much it matters, but I have 3 byes for the event, so I guess I'm much less likely to face decks like Burn and whatnot

Also I'm curious as to why people are moving away from Sanctum Prelate. I guess it is just redundant with Chalice?

Chalice is essentially a faster Prelate. There are a few differences (e.g. you can't cast spells into a Prelate), but the speed is the primary reason. Chalice is hating on decks like Storm and Elves, where that turn matters a ton. In the three color build, it can also be a touch tricky to get WW if you have already played a Magus.

I'd consider the following cards for your final 3 slots:
Leonin Relic-Warder or Manic Vandal (Manic Vandal is a human, so it is potentially a little easier on the mana; WW non-human is tough)
Blessed Alliance (Additional removal spell through Chalice; answer TNN and another odd threats while having huge upside against Burn)
Rest in Peace (generically good card)
Ethersworn Canonist #3 (Elves and Storm are popular, and you bring this is for a ton of blue combo matchups)
A generic offensive creature like Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, or Thalia, Heretic Cathar(it can be important to have a filler slot for when your maindeck cards don't line up well against your opponent and you need to just slot something better in.)

[TLK]

@rostov

You lose some percentage points to combo with Revoker. Shutting off things like Sneak Attack, LED, and Food Chain is game-changing. You also lose points against other Stoneforge decks, as you will have fewer ways to deal with opposing equipment.

@chriscunningham
On 24 lands, this is what I tried with the Scrub:

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Scrubland
1 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
3 Plateau
2 Karakas

What's your current list right now?

[Emurian]

Thanks Medea. My young one has run the gauntlet tests and is nearly finished finalizing his deck. Currently going with WW, but very interesting take: no phyrexian revokers ("yeah, sneak attack'll kill me") but very aggro (serra avengers and mirran crusaders). I note that in your article, the BW list has no phyerexian revokers either. What are the major downsides not having it?

With regard to revoker,

Revoker is nearly never a dead card in your deck, most decks have at least one viable target mainboard. [DRS, SFM, Equipment, planeswalkers]

The card is incredibly versatile, there are also fringe situations where it being an non human artifact creature makes a difference. [Ugin ult, All is dust]

The only deck where I feel that he is ‘’useless’’ G1 is reanimator, as Griselbrand is the solo target in general. Although not dead it doesn’t feel as a great target.

Aside of that, every tier 1-2 deck you come across has legit targets that aid you with your game strategy [denying mana / opponent executing its combo]. It sometimes completely forces your opponent in dealing with the revoker before he is able to continue [Grindstone in Painter best example I can think off] It also deals with some sideboard cards that you don’t want to see [Engineered explosives, Ratchet bomb, walking ballista, grim lavamancer] In general, when hitting a keycard with revoker, it buys you turns [2+] as your opponent needs to answer the Revoker, or go out through his 2nd route to victory [Show and tell over Sneak attack for example]

The major drawback of the card is that it requires extensive knowledge of each Legacy deck. You need to know which targets you can hit + you need to have a good idea after 2 turns what your opponent is playing. Its IMO one of the most skill intensive cards in the deck.
Granted, when people are tweaking their lists, Revoker is usually the first card that gets cut. (Which I agree on) That being said, I would never leave home with at least 2 revokers, and if I would go down to 2, then my Pithing needles in the SB would go up from 1 to 2. Revoker is a card that you will learn to love the better your understanding of the format becomes.

What your son is doing is quite ok for a newcomer, if hes new to deck and the format, then its easier to play more beaters over revoker. (Because chances are high at start that he doesn’t recognize the opposing deck fast enough and then is either stuck with the card on hand, or he needs to make a blind call) Im pretty sure though that he will get a rough idea what to start calling once he has 30-40 matches under his belt. You can also help him by making a small list for him that sums up all the targets he can hit vs deck A B C and the priority in what to call. If he still doesn’t know what to call because what his opponent playing, just call DRS if he sees B or G, im pretty sure that’s a hit in most cases ^^.

To directly answer your question, the downside of not having him is that you will allow your opponent to utilise more of his cards and execute his game plan accordingly. Something which we try to disrupt as much as possible with little softlocks.

[Medea_]

Since a couple of you asked questions about it, here's a write up on Red Prison.

Good look to those of you going to Vegas this week, and I look forward to reading your tournament reports! I can't make it out due to obligations for my summer job, but I'm really looking forward to the coverage.

[piroko139]

Quick tournament report from a 7 round event last night.

I was already on board with using Enevoldson's list and was working on tweaking the sideboard. After realizing I wouldn't have time to fully flesh out the kinks for the fixes I would have made (trying to fit Surgical Extraction in there, mostly), I just decided to roll the full 75.

2 Containment Priest
2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother Of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Vryn Wingmare
(Creature ) 26

3 Ancient Tomb
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Karakas
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
(Land ) 23

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
(Other ) 11

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Council's Judgment
1 Dismember
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
(Sideboard ) 15

So literally no changes. Toyed around with it on MODO, got some 4-1's and felt like I knew roughly what's going on.

Round 1: Jund 2-0
I had no idea what he was on after g1. I made the guess after he Hymned me, but there were still signs that he could have been on BUG Delver. Came into play after Rest in Peace turned off most of his interaction against me game 2.

Round 2: Sneak and Show 2-0
Game 1 got down both Thalias, a Revoker on Sneak and was holding Containment Priest, but never had to use it.
Game 2 he Showed in Omniscience after I flashed in Containment Priest so my butthole clenched. He passed and took lethal the next turn.

Round 3: Elves 2-0
Probably the biggest surprise of the tournament for me. On the play my curve was Plow your dork, Port you, Heretic Cathar. He was slightly off tempo, drew about 2-3 cards a turn off repeatedly bouncing Visionary, but had to keep chump blocking the board so I eventually taxed him out. Cathar also kept me from what I presume dying immediately as I was able to tap down Cradle indefinitely.
Game 2 he didn't draw the Natural Order and was forced to go beatdown. Again Heretic Cathar plus first strike gained me a lot of ground on that front, before eventually resolving Jitte and getting counters on it.

Round 4: Infect 2-1
Probably should have been a 2-0. I punted game 1 after I got way too aggressive with an Eldrazi Displacer. Attacked him for lethal, forced a block with Inkmoth, but he was able to pump past everything, plus have interaction after a Displacer blink. Lost Guardian of Thraben and died immediately next turn. Games 2 and 3 I kept Guardian as more of an enchantment and taxed him out slowly.

Round 5: Elves 0-2
Back to reality, he hardcast Craterhoof despite me having Containment Priest both games. Dems the beats, I guess.

Round 6: Jund Nic Fit 2-0
I was just joking with my car mates since we saw him playing. Didn't realize that he was still in contention. Anyways, I mentioned that Nic Fit is basically a Deed deck and completely forgot it existed when I sat down in front of him.
Game 1 he has Veteran Explorer but no way to kill it himself and I'm not about to oblige him. He also gets mana screwed so double Port goes pretty far until he dies.
Game 2 he gets his engine out and powers out Inferno Titan. I have the Council's Judgment, but we end up topdecking a bit until he rips Grave Titan and I rip Heretic Cathar. Cathar gets both Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice and he attacks in. That punt loses him the game as he never gets board position back. The end of the game he shows me Deed was 2 cards down and I look at my meek Revoker naming Sneak Attack and feel silly.

Round 7: Grixis Delver 0-0-3
ID

Top 8: Wb Death and Taxes 0-2
I expected to lose this as his deck was streamlined for the mirror of all things. A few of his all stars to beat the mirror: Pontiff, 4 Serra Avenger and Sword of Light and Shadow. He gets more Jitte counters than me throughout the 2 games we played, as well as more fliers. It was not close.

The deck felt super solid, Tomb was great, Heretic Cathar was great, Chalice was alright, if nothing else a Decay/Rec Sage magnet. 10/10 would play it back tomorrow if needed.

[Medea_]

List from Japan.

[Svyelunite]

List from Japan.

Dang, 2x Gideon in the SB. Old School anti-Miracles style. Do you think this is just a list that did well despite not updating much, or is it still just good? I know we've talked about the numbers, and it didn't look good for the mono-white traditional builds, but I still think the deck has what it takes.

[AsmodeusDM]

Dang, 2x Gideon in the SB. Old School anti-Miracles style. Do you think this is just a list that did well despite not updating much, or is it still just good? I know we've talked about the numbers, and it didn't look good for the mono-white traditional builds, but I still think the deck has what it takes.

Gids is still good in the mirror and vs. grindy "bring in the removal" non-delver decks (like Shardless or 4C control..etc.) esp. when they back Dread of Night and/or Golgari charm.

[Madmankevinx]

Been out of touch with this deck for a long time, and haven't played against it in ages. I've been thinking about building the mono white version but I was wondering how vital Ports are now? Lands has dropped them in favor of ghost quarter and I was wondering how that would transition over into this deck? I've got kids and a mortgage...

[Medea_]

Been out of touch with this deck for a long time, and haven't played against it in ages. I've been thinking about building the mono white version but I was wondering how vital Ports are now? Lands has dropped them in favor of ghost quarter and I was wondering how that would transition over into this deck? I've got kids and a mortgage...

The Ports a little less vital than before, but still very good. I've experimented with trying out other lands in those slots to some degree of success. If you are just going to be playing a few small events here and there, subbing in Ghost Quarter, Ancient Tomb, or Mishra's Factory is probably fine.

[smutko]

managed a 5-0 with this tonight:



A pretty different direction than the established lists, but I thought I'd share.

[colo]

Very interesting! Since you run a full set of Displacers, what is, if applicable, the most typical move/situation you get value out of its ability?