[Deck] Death and Taxes

[phg22]

Marungo, I was your death blade opponent. How else did I "rules shoot" that match? As for the incident with Clique and SoL, I suggest you watch PVDDR's video about calling a judge. I usually call a judge on my opponents and will always call one on myself or my opponent when some sort of fix is necessary. This is a competitive REL event and every result greatly changes the amount of prize. While I believe you made an honest mistake, I have no way of actually knowing if you were cheating or not. Calling a judge so you get a warning tracked by the DCI is how we eventually find the actual cheaters, while honest players like us take our warnings when we mess up, but don't accumulate them. If you said "Draw?" I either missed it or you did so as you drew. Certainly, if it happened as you said, you should have said so to the judge; you did not. Also, this incident required a fix of shuffling the card into your deck, which should not be done without the judge's intervention. I hope you don't find this antagonistic, but I felt the need to defend myself and the practice of calling a judge.

As for your sideboarding decisions, every card you brought in is good, but so are the cards you removed. Mom is one of the scariest cards for me as an active Mother shuts down most means of interaction outside of sweepers (all I had was one Zealous) and TNN + equipment; I had to Force her game one as I didn't have removal. Crusader can be very good against Batterskull and Strix, but I did take out skull so maybe its just not cost efficient. Fliers are likely more important postboard because I'll have answers to SoFI so you need fliers or Mom to beat TNN in most cases.

[Marungo]

Marungo, I was your death blade opponent. How else did I "rules shoot" that match? As for the incident with Clique and SoL, I suggest you watch PVDDR's video about calling a judge. I usually call a judge on my opponents and will always call one on myself or my opponent when some sort of fix is necessary. This is a competitive REL event and every result greatly changes the amount of prize. While I believe you made an honest mistake, I have no way of actually knowing if you were cheating or not. Calling a judge so you get a warning tracked by the DCI is how we eventually find the actual cheaters, while honest players like us take our warnings when we mess up, but don't accumulate them. If you said "Draw?" I either missed it or you did so as you drew. Certainly, if it happened as you said, you should have said so to the judge; you did not. Also, this incident required a fix of shuffling the card into your deck, which should not be done without the judge's intervention. I hope you don't find this antagonistic, but I felt the need to defend myself and the practice of calling a judge.

As for your sideboarding decisions, every card you brought in is good, but so are the cards you removed. Mom is one of the scariest cards for me as an active Mother shuts down most means of interaction outside of sweepers (all I had was one Zealous) and TNN + equipment; I had to Force her game one as I didn't have removal. Crusader can be very good against Batterskull and Strix, but I did take out skull so maybe its just not cost efficient. Fliers are likely more important postboard because I'll have answers to SoFI so you need fliers or Mom to beat TNN in most cases.

I want to apologize. I have had very poor experiences in the past with opponents doing exactly as I mentioned and assumed that you were doing the same thing. I let my preconceived notions and my past experiences influence how I viewed the situation. Like I said, I have strong opinions regarding how magi should be played. Opinions I know aren't always 100% agreed upon. So I was under the false impression you called the judge when you did to get me a warning and tried to get me DQ'd. I've had it happen before that an opponent attempted this and told me as much after the fact. As such, I offer my sincerest apologies. I misread your intentions sir. And for that and more I am very sorry. It was my mistake and I own up to it.

As for the boarding I agree that it's very tough. Mom is really great but if you have verdict or stuff like zealous persecution post-board I want to be threat dense. So many tough choices.

[Curby]

Always great to see more evidence that not all Legacy threads/communities/players are toxic.

[gh0st_b1rd]

As for the boarding I agree that it's very tough. Mom is really great but if you have verdict or stuff like zealous persecution post-board I want to be threat dense. So many tough choices.

It is usually common practice to board down to 2x Moms vs fair decks that use Black mana, only to avoid getting yourself 2-for-1ed too often.

[smutko]

i have 3 trophies in legacy right now and they are all with this deck:


I've tried more normal versions, and while I'll admit that there's a lot of variance out there as far as how I perform in any one league with any one list, I keep coming back to this and it keeps doing well for me.
I think I'll be moving one palace jailer main over one mangara, not sure what I'll throw in the board in its place. The deck still feels like a very rough draft, but with how many tix its won me in the last couple weeks I'll be continuing to work on it.

[AsmodeusDM]

Very cool; I like Eldrazi Displacer (fell in love with it during UW Eldrazi winter in modern) and it's always cool to see people putting up good results with it.

I agree that I'd prefer a palace jailer over mangara (who continues to always feel too slow for my liking)

i have 3 trophies in legacy right now and they are all with this deck:


I've tried more normal versions, and while I'll admit that there's a lot of variance out there as far as how I perform in any one league with any one list, I keep coming back to this and it keeps doing well for me.
I think I'll be moving one palace jailer main over one mangara, not sure what I'll throw in the board in its place. The deck still feels like a very rough draft, but with how many tix its won me in the last couple weeks I'll be continuing to work on it.

[iatee]

Have you ever actually cast Devout Lightcaster? I feel like the card wouldn't even see play if it were 1WW, simply because there aren't enough relevant black permanents in the format.

[smutko]

Have you ever actually cast Devout Lightcaster? I feel like the card wouldn't even see play if it were 1WW, simply because there aren't enough relevant black permanents in the format.

Nope, I'll probably take it back out. Put it in for this league and never used it. I was thinking I'd like it against all the flavors of grixis that are running around at the moment, but the casting cost is a bit prohibitive. I wonder if this guy could be decent. I didn't know that card existed until I started scouring gatherer just now. Having a way to answer toxic deluge seems pretty sweet to me.

[iatee]

Most relevant black spells are cast before turn 4, which would be the first time that guy even comes online. The bigger issue with utility creatures like that guy is that if they have to tap to use their ability, then you don't get to attack with them / you get no guaranteed value off them if they're killed on the spot.

DnT's best creatures have tended to be ones with static abilities or ETB effects, Mom being the obvious exception. Even Mangara (who I think is a more generically powerful card than that dude) doesn't see much play anymore.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Has anybody been playing Enevoldesen's Ancient Tomb list lately? I just want to know what common problems people have been dealing with. Also, stuff like whether Containment Priest and/or Eldrazi Displacer have felt subpar/win-more.

I admit, I saw the list and now I really wanna go out and buy a playset of Chalices to implement into my RW Taxes.

[vtml1984]

Played Wb last night in a simple 4 round 20ish player tournament.

I have been playing it for the last few weeks. I am down to 22 lands 3 fetches 1 scrubland and Two Serra Avenger and an Orzhov Pontiff main and one in side with a Kambal in the side.

On a whim I brought Kambal in against Czetch Pile. It was surprising. With Karakas, and a Mom they have no real way to remove it and when they try it is a 12 point life swing. The match was slow enough that the life gain and loss are real. He ended up doing about 14 points of damage or so. The pressure it generated allowed me to live through a land flood (draw about 5-6 in a row).

Tiny sample mind you, but I am much liking the 22 lands. Even with it I still flooded 4 games.

Below is the full list:

Lands 22
5 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
1 Scrubland
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karaks
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Creatures 27
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirrian Crusader

Artifacts 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte

Spells 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Side 15
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon, Ally of Zenikar
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Council Judgement
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Pithing Needle
Played Wb

[iatee]

Kambal is a very good card and should come in vs basically all Brainstorm decks.

'The guy who won the GP ran 22 lands - maybe we should all experiment with 22 lands' is something I expected to happen but it's not good logic. It's already been tried. 22 lands isn't enough for this deck. We've all lost games to flooding, we've just lost more games to mana screw. If you're playing a splash and a ton of 3 drops you have even more reason to want 24 lands, not just 23.

[WashableWater1]

Im not a great number cruncher, but is it not possible that some builds would run just fine with 22 lands, such as a build that focuses on keeping a lower curve by running more Spirits and Revokers and cutting the Recruiters. Does anyone know how many lands you would want to hit 2 by turn two and not necessarily hit 3 until turn 4-5?

[iatee]

The problem with that kind of math is that:
a. Wasteland exists, people play it.
b. Also...we play it, which usually means we're playing fewer than 23 'real lands', even though we use Wasteland for mana far more than a Delver deck does.
c. Also we play Aether Vial, which totally messes up manabase math.

In legacy, there's a huge difference between having 2 lands in play and having 2 basic lands in play. If your two opening lands are a Karakas and a Rishadan Port, you're actually in a super vulnerable spot, you might get Wastelanded and never cast another spell. If your two lands are 2 Plains, you're probably fine.

[gh0st_b1rd]

The problem with that kind of math is that:
a. Wasteland exists, people play it.
b. Also...we play it, which usually means we're playing fewer than 23 'real lands', even though we use Wasteland for mana far more than a Delver deck does.
c. Also we play Aether Vial, which totally messes up manabase math.

In legacy, there's a huge difference between having 2 lands in play and having 2 basic lands in play. If your two opening lands are a Karakas and a Rishadan Port, you're actually in a super vulnerable spot, you might get Wastelanded and never cast another spell. If your two lands are 2 Plains, you're probably fine.

Not to mention snap keeping the Karakas + Port hands anyway, get Wastelanded and pray that your next topdeck will be another white source.

[FeX]

The problem with that kind of math is that:
a. Wasteland exists, people play it.
b. Also...we play it, which usually means we're playing fewer than 23 'real lands', even though we use Wasteland for mana far more than a Delver deck does.
c. Also we play Aether Vial, which totally messes up manabase math.

In legacy, there's a huge difference between having 2 lands in play and having 2 basic lands in play. If your two opening lands are a Karakas and a Rishadan Port, you're actually in a super vulnerable spot, you might get Wastelanded and never cast another spell. If your two lands are 2 Plains, you're probably fine.

i agree 100%.
one of the most overlooked factors regarding the number of lands in this deck, is the fact that we also play 4 wasteland. keep that in mind,guys. and you wont always have aether vial. imo, 23 lands is mandatory and 24 lands is also very playable. 22 lands is only an option if your curve is somehow very lean. like with six 3 drops max.
yea, the winner of the GP played 22 lands with a 'normal' curve, but lets be real, he also had a lot of bracket luck (not taking away anything from him though).
just dont overreact and start playing 22 lands on a regular basis.

[AsmodeusDM]

I actually did a bunch of monte carlo simulations once and found that you actually want MORE than 23 lands actually; especially with the common density of 8+ 3-drops in the deck these days.

As I recall you didn't quite want 24 in 60 (that was too much); but something close to 24 lands in a 61 card deck actually produced the ideal balance.

Kambal is a very good card and should come in vs basically all Brainstorm decks.

'The guy who won the GP ran 22 lands - maybe we should all experiment with 22 lands' is something I expected to happen but it's not good logic. It's already been tried. 22 lands isn't enough for this deck. We've all lost games to flooding, we've just lost more games to mana screw. If you're playing a splash and a ton of 3 drops you have even more reason to want 24 lands, not just 23.

[Penguinizer]

I return from the land of salt and losing to Miracles 3 rounds in a row and deciding to take a break as a result. 6 round tournament at Poromagia in Helsinki. I actually took some notes, but have the memory of a goldfish so my descriptions of the rounds will be short. At least I remember what I played against this time around.

My Raven was equipped with the following:
Lands: (No cavern because I couldnt' be assed to pay that much for them.)
7x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Karkas
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Creatures: (No Sanctum Prelate since I forgot to get one.)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Palace Jailer
1x Vryn Wingmare

Sideboard:
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Rest in Peace
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Council's Judgement
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Leonin Relic-warder

I went 4-2 and was overall happy with how things went. Here's a quick rundown of how I vaguely remember my rounds and what notes I have in my life-sheet.

Round 1: Storm (PiF or somesuch who knows?) In my notes I have written "Fist, grind -> fist". I got pretty much dunked. Sided in grave and combo hate but it wasn't enough. Game 2 I had hate on board but my opponent chain of vapored before comboing because my clock wasn't fast enough.

Round 2: BW thingy. In my notes I've just written the word "Grind" 10 or so times. It was a very slow game but I eventually closed out both matches because my opponent ran out of gas. I can't even remember what I sideboarded. Probably revoker in and something out.

Game 3: Dredge. I got turbodunked. I didn't draw enough hate to stop him from just going off or getting enough zombies.

Game 4: Manaless dredge. This time I draw roughly all the hate. Games 2 and 3 I fclear his chancellor of the annex with a vial or mom and turn 2 RiP into scoop. Bring in canonists and grave hate and such ya ya usuals.

Game 5: UWR Delver I think? I forgot to write it down. But it was a kind of grindy game, but my opponent either didn't have enough lands or too many so I pulled out ahead both games. My notes read "Topdeck game too stronk."

Game 6: BUG Delver. My notes read "Double ??? game 1 into grind. Don't sideboard Sword of Fire and Ice out against TNN you dickbutt." Game 1 I recall my opponent having poor draws and game 2 I resolved double mom so I could race his TNN with a Flickerwisp and Thalia, Heretic Cathar.


Overall, should've mulliganed more aggressively against storm and dredge, but things were pretty ok overall.

[Curby]

the winner of the GP played 22 lands with a 'normal' curve, but lets be real, he also had a lot of bracket luck (not taking away anything from him though).
just dont overreact and start playing 22 lands on a regular basis.

Along these lines, any further thoughts about mono-white versus splashes in a post-Vegas paper meta? Or to be blunt, a skilled mono-white pilot can do very well when over 50% of matches are Show and Tell or Delver, but what about the other popular matchups? A GP win is an amazing and well-earned achievement regardless of the opposing decks found on the way there, but that's still an "n of 1" data set. It's important to not let that skew our perspective too much.

If we look more broadly, how does the top64 of that event influence the relative merits of mono-white vs splashes? As examples, there were as many Elves as there were S&T decks, and there were more non-D&T Stoneblade decks than either of those. You could easily imagine facing a greater number of even or unfavorable matchups that could benefit from off-white cards.

something close to 24 lands in a 61 card deck actually produced the ideal balance.

Hmm I thought I heard that suggested once in an article on Thraben University.

[colo]

Five rounds of Legacy in Vienna, Austria yesterday, where I piloted the following list to 4-1 in matches:


8 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Stonecloaker
1 Palace Jailer
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Leonin Relic-Warder


4 Leyline of the Void
3 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Holy Light
1 Epochrasite
1 Containment Priest


Apart from the sideboard (I got funky and decided to try Leylines to shut out graveyard strategies without any kind of "discussion" about the matter), it is my usual, greedy configuration that has served me well for several months now. Expexting a lot of BUG, I tried to incorporate elements that would be able to deal with TNN. Since I ultimately did not face anything that _really_ cares about its graveyard (my plan was to board in Leylines versus Lands, Reanimator and Dredge only), I wasn't able to test my hyopthesis.

I played Red Stompy (2-0), BUG Delver (2-0), Elves (0-2, losing both times to a very early Natural Order->Craterhoof), White Eldrazi (2-0) and Grixis Delver (2-1).

Magus of the Moon from Vial is boss.