[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Moctzal]

It's time for Stoneblade at this point.

Too many reasons to list.

[Medea_]

@autonom

This is outdated at this point, but might be helpful for you. This may also be of interest.

[autonom]

@autonom

This is outdated at this point, but might be helpful for you. This may also be of interest.

Thanks for the links!

I enjoy your site and have gotten inspiration from there. I have read most of the content on your site one or more times :-)

[Medea_]

Thanks for the links!

I enjoy your site and have gotten inspiration from there. I have read most of the content on your site one or more times :-)

I'm glad you find it helpful. One thing to keep in mind is that very few people are still mucking around with a blue splash these days. There's probably a reason for that. It's really hard on the mana, and it often involves dropping Port to make all the UU cards castable. If you're just trying to play with Queller, it's probably fine. One you start trying TNN, Venser, and Clique though, at that point, transitioning to a full-on Stoneblade shell might be wise. Test both and see what you think.

[colo]

I tried the U splash quite recently once more, cutting all the beater-esque (Mirran Crusader et al.) stuff for True-Name Nemesis and Geist of Saint Traft (in a 3-2 split between the two). It's not worth it in my opinion. While TNN gives you total peace of mind in terms of spot removal, -1/-1 effects now hit even harder than they did before, and the mana mixture in face of Wasteland (both your own and your opponent's ;)) is a real problem. I'll migrate back to my Recruiter of the Guard-heavy mono-W list with Magus of the Moon/Orzhov Pontiff via Cavern of Souls, I guess.

On a slightly different note: I recently dabbled in Burn with a white splash for Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt. And oh boy, does Grunt pull its weight these days! Due to its stellar performance, I'm very much considering trying it in D&T again. Incrementally hosing Deathrite Shaman, Delve-spells, and all other kinds of graveyard shenanigans, all while dominating the board at 1W is a bargain that needs revisiting imo.

[iatee]

The black and red splashes have a slightly less clean manabase but they get to abuse Cavern, so it's a trade-off. Whereas green or blue splashes just have strictly worse manabases.

And basically all of the powerful creatures you want to play are UU and not human.

[Mannaus]

On a slightly different note: I recently dabbled in Burn with a white splash for Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt. And oh boy, does Grunt pull its weight these days! Due to its stellar performance, I'm very much considering trying it in D&T again. Incrementally hosing Deathrite Shaman, Delve-spells, and all other kinds of graveyard shenanigans, all while dominating the board at 1W is a bargain that needs revisiting imo.

This seems fun! In my opinion, the issue with Jotun in DnT is twofolds: its lack of versatility and he eats all removals. If he's too much of an issue on-board (kolaghan-commands in graveyard for example), your opponent will remove it with priority. And then the big boy will have achieved nothing, and ends up being a loss of tempo on your side.
But I'm very interested to hear about your experience, if you end up testing him :)

[Medea_]

Jotun Grunt is an awkward card normally and it got more awkward after RiP got printed. I'm not sold on it since we have gotten so many other options for those flex slots in the past year or so.

[JacobRoberts]

Just throwing in my 2 cents on the blue splash - yeah, UU cards aren't playable in d&t. But the mana base with Geist of St Traft is doable, and its interaction with Karakas and equipment is legitimately powerful in a way that you don't see in any other deck in any other format. Unfortunately, there aren't really any other reasons to go blue. The other creatures with a single blue pip like reflector mage and spell queller aren't really strong enough for legacy, and Meddling Mage is cool but just another turn 2 hatebear in this deck, nothing special. So a blue splash is a dead end right now, barring some silly creature being printed in a new commander/conspiracy.

[Finn]

Colo, you probably considered this, but Grunt is kinda clunky in D+T because the deck does not do anything with the graveyard at all. Games can go a bunch of turns before the first card is even there sometimes. I used Grunt extensively before Thalia 1.0 as recently as 2012. But I think the bar for a card being in this deck has gone up considerably since then.

I recall it being poor graveyard hate and a good beater IF the opponent felt threatened enough to blow removal on him. Exceptionally good at fighting Tarmogoyf.

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

I did a podcast for Leaving a Legacy. If you've got an hour and a half to kill while doing other things, check it out.

[Mad Mat]

Two questions for you guys:

-Against topless miracles game 2 (on the play), do you keep this: plains, fetch (black splash), waste, karakas, plow, mother, palace jailer? 2 plows were kept in because you expect 2-3 mentor, izzet staticaster and containment priest.
-Do you board out Serra Avenger against Aluren?

I'm quite satisfied with my current BW list. Last two tournaments I went undefeated in the swiss, but then lost in the QF. Match-ups:

R1: BUG delver 2-0
R2: Grixis control 2-0
R3: Grixis delver 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5,6: ID
QF: Aluren 1-2

R1,2: Bye
R3: Sneaky show with omni 2-1
R4: Infect 2-0
R5: Bant deathblade 2-0
R6,7: ID
QF: Topless miracles 0-2

From these, pontiff is a real asset against infect, true-name blade decks, aluren and grixis control. Not sure about confidant, as he's never lasted a turn the few times I saw him and there was never a good window for recruiting him. Maybe a creature with more immediate impact, like a canonist, a third revoker or a spirit of the labyrinth is better here. Kambal felt like the only card that actually gave me a fighting chance against decks like topless miracles and grixis control, though he didn't play a role in these matches as I never saw him. There's some match-ups were extra crusaders would be better (like Aluren and czech pile), but then there's a whole bunch where Kambal is better, like miracles, lands, sneaky show, burn, UR delver and grixis control.

Boarding:

BUG delver:
-2 revoker, -1 prelate, -1 pontiff, -1 familiar, -1 jitte
+1 path, +2 council, +2 RIP, +1 blessed alliance

Grixis control:
-2 revoker, -4 STP, -2 SFM, -1 jitte, -1 batterskull
+2 Kambal, +2 RIP, +2 Council, +1 Palace Jailer, +1 Pontiff, +2 Canonist

Grixis delver:
-2 revoker, -1 familiar, -1 recruiter, -1 confidant
+1 prelate, +1 path, +2 council, +1 blessed alliance

Infect:
-2 revoker, -2 crusader, -1 batterskull, -1 SFM, -1 Karakas
+2 canonist, +1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +1 path, +1 Leonin Relic-Warder

Sneaky show:
-4 STP, -1 mother, -1 jitte, -1 pontiff, -2 crusader, -1 SFM
+2 Kambal, +1 palace jailer, +1 prelate, +1 leonin relic-warder, +2 canonist, +2 council, +1 needle

Bant deathblade:
-4 Thalia, -1 prelate, -1 familiar
+1 pontiff, +1 needle, +1 blessed alliance, +2 council, +1 leonin relic-warder

Miracles:
-2 STP, -2 crusader, -2 revoker, -1 jitte
+2 Kambal, +1 jailer, +1 prelate, +2 canonist, +1 needle

[iatee]

I wouldn't keep a hand that has no way of doing damage until turn 5 vs Miracles. Wasteland and STP are not cards you want in your opening hand. I think you pretty much have to draw Thalia or SfM immediately for that hand to have a chance vs a normal Miracles start. (I would also play the CJs over STPs, or potentially in addition to 1/2, depending on how Mentor heavy they seemed.)

I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.

I like Kambal a lot, I have played very similar lists and done pretty well with them. I don't think Judge's Familiar is very good, but it's not so bad that you can't win with one in your deck.

[Medea_]

@Mad Matt

Snap mulligan that hand against Miracles. No thought. The last thing I want to do is give my Miracles opponent time to set up and make land drops while playing annoying things like Search for Azcanta. If you brick on a turn 2 and/or 3 play, you're going to be really far behind. Assuming your Mom is dead by turn 4, you're also just one EoT Snapcaster Mage (plus removal spell) from losing the Monarch status and probably the game.

Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.

Some other random thoughts:

I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.

Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.

I'd 100% want Council's Judgment against Miracles. I second Iatee's claim.

Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.

[Mad Mat]

I wouldn't keep a hand that has no way of doing damage until turn 5 vs Miracles. Wasteland and STP are not cards you want in your opening hand. I think you pretty much have to draw Thalia or SfM immediately for that hand to have a chance vs a normal Miracles start. (I would also play the CJs over STPs, or potentially in addition to 1/2, depending on how Mentor heavy they seemed.)

I played council over plow before, but the only relevant extra hit for council is Jace. Getting rid of Jace is critical, but in my experience the chances of surviving a resolved Jace are very slim anyway. The reduced mana cost (in particular with Thalia) and instant speed on the other hand for plow make a lot of difference, in particular when you board in canonist.

I don't think the Canonists are that good vs Grixis Control, and boarding out SfM/equip seems wrong there. Sometimes they have Kolaghan's Command, other times they don't and you just win.

The reasoning behind boarding out equipment is that they don't just have the commands, they have therapy too. That plus a bunch of unconditional spot removal (they tend to play bolt over push) makes SFM approaches very vulnerable. You don't just lose a threat and/or a piece of equipment, you lose a lot of tempo along the way as well. Extra creatures also bank better against Liliana of the Last Hope.

Snap mulligan that hand against Miracles. No thought. The last thing I want to do is give my Miracles opponent time to set up and make land drops while playing annoying things like Search for Azcanta. If you brick on a turn 2 and/or 3 play, you're going to be really far behind. Assuming your Mom is dead by turn 4, you're also just one EoT Snapcaster Mage (plus removal spell) from losing the Monarch status and probably the game.

My idea was at first that this is a very dubious hand. But it does have the turn 1 play they need to answer if they don't want to face the turn 2 un-plowable SFM or Thalia (which I can draw into or they don't know I don't have). Plow goes fairly well along with Jailer in keeping the monarch for a few turns and Jailer forces them to have it or die to all the value you draw into. What convinced me to keep it was the Karakas, which sets up very difficult board states for them to get rid of if you manage to find a legend (there's 6 post board, + recruiters).

But as it turned out, the hand was too slow and he was able to find most of the answers he needed by the time I resolved Jailer. I did manage to draw four cards off of him, but all of those were blanks and I was forced to plow a snapcaster to stay the monarch (not using vial for pontiff in fear of force of will if an eventual mentor arrived). So yeah, this is a mulligan next time around. I had the answers that should have been sufficient to stay the monarch if he didn't have everything, but he had everything because the hand was too slow to prevent him from finding it.

Serra Avenger is decisively average against Aluren (and any other Baleful Strix deck). Whether or not you board it out is entirely dependent on how many cards you have to bring in and what other cards you need to board out first.

I boarded it out, but I got aggro'd to death game 3 as I failed to find anything of pressure or blocking value. Made me think that maybe I should keep in more beaters, as you're aggro in this match-up anyway. Strix is the problem, but you do have pontiffs and Avenger survives anything else they can throw at you.

I wouldn't cut Jitte against a Delver deck.

That should have been a wisp, actually. Cutting a flyer ain't that attractive against delver either, but this is a deck where I have much more fear from tombstalker than delver so I want all the removal I can get (+RIP). Maybe a recruiter is a better pick, though that does imply one less way to find crusader.

Equipment is the best thing in your deck against any control deck, even if they have things like K. Command.

Is it always? Equipment is good against control and midrange because it is card advantage: every dumb bear becomes a threat when equipped. But it is also a loss of tempo. If you know you're playing against card advantage.deck, including artifact removal, maybe a tempo boost is better than trying to beat them at the attrition game? I find this particularly tempting against Grixis, because they have 2-3 Kolaghan in addition to a therapy suite. This is different than, say, miracles, which has much less answers available to equipment.

I'm not saying I'm convinced that this strategy is the right approach. But it feels like something worth exploring. The match-up is quite bad, while the deck is very popular over here, so any boons are welcome.

Try cutting StP against Stoneblade decks of various natures. It sounds weird, but it feels pretty good.

I always cut STP against stoneblade decks, except for this sort of build. They run much more creatures than esper or deathblade, including 8 mana dorks. While STP can't hit True-Name, a raced-out jitte turn 3 is just as threatening. A double exalted noble or single exalted Deathrite/SFM with a Jitte is just as threatening as a true-name if you don't have the plow (and the crusader comes down too late). Thalia, on the other hand, tends to be worse because they play fewer noncreature spells, while having more ramp, and you depend considerably on timely resolving your noncreature spells to deal with their true-names and equipment.

[Medea_]

So here's an interesting list for you all.

[iatee]

I don't find the Grixis matchups to be about tempo, they're actually attrition matchups. Boarding out your two-for-ones so that you don't get two-for-one'd is not a great strategy there. Kolaghan's Command and Cabal Therapy can wreck you with or without Stoneforge.

[tescrin]

Is it always? Equipment is good against control and midrange because it is card advantage: every dumb bear becomes a threat when equipped. But it is also a loss of tempo. If you know you're playing against card advantage.deck, including artifact removal, maybe a tempo boost is better than trying to beat them at the attrition game? I find this particularly tempting against Grixis, because they have 2-3 Kolaghan in addition to a therapy suite. This is different than, say, miracles, which has much less answers available to equipment.

It's worth mentioning:
* Kolaghan's is always a 2-for-1 outside of very rare scenarios. It's true that KCom can be mediocre tempo if all it does is pick off a mom and make you discard a card, but it's always a 2-for-1.
* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.

RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it. I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.

Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T

[FeX]

@Tescrin
i 100% second what you are saying.
that being said, im still playing exactly one recruiter in the sideboard to increase the chances of finding my sideboard bullets mostly, and the occasional flickerwisp chain which is sometimes just very good.
the current field is so polluted with removal (pile/grixis) that i have the best win record by just soflty disrupting the opponent and slowing them down initially(thalia,port,waste, revoker) and then jamming a creature that just doesnt get hit by one-for-one removal and idieally has first/double strike or some form of evasion to strap jitte/sword on it and go from there. im playing 8-9 creatures that fit this category in my 75 and it feels awesome.
you obviously just need to be careful to not overextend into deluge/casualties etc.. my plan basically is if you discard/remove one of them, im just throwing another one at you that you can barely ever remove. but that only works if you dedicate enough slots in the deck towards such creatures.
also worth noting is the fact that im playing 1 maindeck relic of progenitus at the moment and it has been great so far. relevant in a lot of match ups and at worst it is digging through your deck a little.
generally, i think DnT is getting built a little too slow/clunky these days and while recruiter of the guard opens up a lot of new possibilities, you shouldnt play too many,imo.
i personally prefer a much more streamlined approach to the deck than durdling around too much with clunky cards in the main that are cute sometimes, but other times are just absolutely terrible and a shot in the dark too many times(palace jailer/prelate/spirit of the labyrinth etc). a hard to deal with creature package (especially in the current meta) in addition to our soft disruption alongside a sideboard with cheap/efficient answers to our most problematic cards/strategies g2/g3 is rarely ever bad.

also @Phil
SoWaP is great!

[Mad Mat]

I don't find the Grixis matchups to be about tempo, they're actually attrition matchups. Boarding out your two-for-ones so that you don't get two-for-one'd is not a great strategy there. Kolaghan's Command and Cabal Therapy can wreck you with or without Stoneforge.

We have a few tricks that can make an attrition fight possible: problematic creatures like Mirran Crusader, Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Palace Jailer; legendaries + Karakas; Orzhov Pontiff/Cunning Sparkmage; Rest in Peace and unanswered equipment. The problem I experienced is that our approaches to gain card advantage are less consistent and/or abundant than theirs. Hence the idea of trying to tempo them instead, in part by denying them gaining a lot of tempo advantage with Kolaghan's Command.

On the other hand, Tescrin makes a good point: recruiter fits rather poorly in the tempo strategy, while he may be important in tutoring up the right pieces of the above list. Also, Canonist is itself very conditional, given that he also gives them extra wiggle-room with Kolaghan due to it being an artifact. I should find some more time for proper testing this match-up.

It's worth mentioning:
* Kolaghan's is always a 2-for-1 outside of very rare scenarios. It's true that KCom can be mediocre tempo if all it does is pick off a mom and make you discard a card, but it's always a 2-for-1.

There's a world of difference between a 2-for-1 that wrecks your and/or stabilizes their board and a 2-for-1 that has no board impact, making you discard a card and them getting back a strix or snap they can only cast next turn. With equipment in particular, the card more easily becomes a 3-for-1, killing a creature, an equipment and blocking the formerly equipped creature to death with one of their snaps, strixes or tokens that did not cost them a card. You're not going to escape that it is a 2-for-1. But you can try to make it so that it's as lame a 2-for-1 as possible.

* Cabal Therapy is good against equips sure, but they still run YP and Probe, which is why Therapy is mained against the rest of the field too. A good chunk of the field doesn't run SFM and they still get torn up by Therapy. Given this, dropping the main way your deck wins seems pretty meh.

The problem of recruiter and stoneforge is that they remove one of the obstacles Grixis players need to take to make maximal use of their therapies. They don't always have the probe, as well as the therapy and the pyromancer and the mana to sequence them properly. Recruiter has the problem somewhat less, because starting from turn 4 (and even better with a living vial) you can still find something castable and play it if you know they have therapy. That's also one of the reasons I like the single Judge's Familiar, because you can recruit for it and jam it to throw their next turn into complete disarray manawise, as they are a much more mana hungry deck without DRS than czech pile.

RIP does seem like the best option; as it hits KCom (potentially), Therapy, Gurmag, SCM, DRS, and they don't have way to remove it.

RIP is by far the best card against them. I've considered going up to 3 for this reason. Grixis does not run DRS though, so it is less vulnerable than Czech Pile. And they tend to board out counters, so extra RIP's are complete duds unless they are playing Engineered Explosives.

I didn't look at your list, but dropping Revokers, Recruiters, and other slow or low impact cards is the way to go. Recruiter isn't must answer unless you're winning, and Revoker doesn't hit much. Go fo cards that say "you better have it", which are SFM, Crusader, Brimaz, and Mom. If you can land three "must answers" in a row, the chances are that they'll be out of stuff. If you durdle on a Recruiter to get your must answer, you open yourself up to a therapy and give your opp a full turn to find removal, therapy, Force, or a host of other nasties that can get you.

The therapy risk of recruiter is an issue, and rather inconsistent with a tempo plan. The reason to keep it in is that it can find the key creatures you want for this match-up. It's a virtual extra copies of cards like Mirran Crusader, Thalia, Orzhov Pontiff and Palace Jailer. With less equipment, its 1/1 body is pretty lame, but it does make any future Flickerwisp a more serious threat if you don't have vial.

Honestly [as an outsider] I find Recruiter to be a really mediocre addition to the deck. I think if people were running the "old" MonoW D&T they'd still be winning just as much (and possibly more.) Recruiter makes sense in the Magus lists or for those hold outs running mangara; but IMO you should just run 3-4 high impact cards against the field (Crusader, Brimaz, or some other tech-nasty.) When TNN first came out and the list went full on aggro with Serra Avengers and whatnot, that's the list I think is best poised; and it's just not putting up results because everyone's still stuck on Recruiter from the age of WR D&T

Recruiter allows you to play singletons like Orzhov Pontiff, Sanctum Prelate, Palace Jailer, Leonin Relic-Warder and Magus of the Moon to great effect, because you always have about twice as many ways to find them than you'd have otherwise. That's the main reason to pack him. It makes splashing possible and therefore allows you to run cards that address serious problems this deck tends to have, like True-Name Nemesis, token swarms, opposing mom board states, argothian enchantresses, strix chains, infect creatures...