That's an interesting point. Prelate on CMC=1 turns off 12 spells, 8 of which could be used to kill the Prelate; CMC=2 hits fewer spells, but they include Price of Progress and (especially post-board), Smash to Smithereens and Searing B. spells. CMC=3 will prevent Rift Bolt and Sulfuric Vortex.
I think the counter strategies suggested are helpful. I tended to undervalue SFM because of the power of Vortex and artifact removal, but I realize that 1-2 hits with Jitte or Batterskull can easily push us out of reach.
I don't think the matchup is favorable, but in light of how much resource-trading we force them to do and the fact that they either need to answer the lifegain or lose, it's not nearly so daunting.
Preboard it is absolutely correct to name 1 unless you hold two Swords to Plowshares in your hand, because you hit the most efficient cards with it and you limit their plays with your Ports and Thalia anyways. In Postborde Games I think priority Number one is to protect your Equipments so then I would play it on 2.Originally Posted by Curby
I am thinking about the fact if Path to Exile isn't better than Swords to Plowshares in the current Meta. Some Decks don't even play Basic Lands or the Lifegain can be really relevant against Reanimator or Marit Lage Decks. On the other Hand if you are playing against Creature light Decks you can Path your own Creature to improve your Mana and the ability to use Equipments.
Here is a short overview with the common Matchups were I think which Removal Spell is better:
Grixis Delver (15%): Path to Exile (preventing the opponent to get 3 to 5 life is really valuable for racing, but the drawback can be the 'free shuffle')
4C Leovold (7%): Even (Ramping with Removal on your own Creature is okay, but sometimes the lifegain can sum up as well)
Death and Taxes (5%): Swords to Plowshares (lifegain is unimportant most of the time but the free Plains is a real disadvantage)
Miracles (5%): Path to Exile (you more likely to Ramp yourself which improves Ports and Equipments)
Lands (5%): Path to Exile (20 Life for a Marit Lage, no thanks)
Sultai Delver (4%): Path to Exile (same as Grixis Delver)
Moon Stompy (3%): Swords to Plowshares (they play a lot of Mountains and the Creatures usually have 2-3 Power)
Elves (3%): Swords to Plowshares (same as Death and Taxes but Forest)
ANT (3%): Swords to Plowshares (Lifegain can ruin Storm Counts)
Sneak and Show (3%): Path to Exile (Path limits the Advantage of a Griselbrand)
Eldrazi Stompy (2,5%): Path to Exile (they usually don't play Wastes in their Deck and 4-5 Life can make a difference of one Turn)
Turbo Depths (2,5%): Path to Exile (20 Life for a Marit Lage, no thanks)
Reanimator (2,5%): Path to Exile (the extra Land can give the opponent an advantage for future Reanimations but the lifegain usually gives 2 free Turns)
Deathblade (2,5%): Swords to Plowshares (some lists don't play Basic Lands but the Creatures you kill usually only bring 1 Life anyway)
If you sum up each Percentage in the Meta (according to actual MTGGoldfish Data of winning Decks) we have about 40% for Path to Exile but just 16,5% for Swords to Plowshares.
Thoughts?
The problem with this thinking is that when plow is “bad” it’s barely noticeable. When path is bad, it’s awful. You’re mana denying 4c. Then you path something. Well done. Your plan has gone to shit.
I am heading the Seattle and trying to get my sideboard in order. I am expecting a ton of blue grindy decks and delver. I have most of my side board set. I am playing mono white with either 3 crusader and a big Thalia (or brimaz) or 4 crusaders. Here is what my side board looks like right now:
2 cataclysm
2 path to exile
3 rest in peace
1 relic warden
1 sanctum prelate
2 ethersworn
1 containment priest
2 council judgement
I have o e spot where I have tried a few things: 3rd path and recuiter of the guard. Both were good, but then I tried restoration angel. Thing was great, I could just keep either a recuiter or a path in the board and drop ancrusader/brimaz/big Thalia from the main there. Or just keep the main board and not play the resto. From my testing brimaz and resto have really helped my delver match up with out Serra’s. The nice thing is both require a two for one to remove and brimaz is a nice counter to pyro and resto gives me an out to delver and races a truename. Further both seem good in the 4c match as well. I was able to prevent my guy dying thanks to karakas (after the match my opponent was like that damn thing blanked my edicts. Just having more bodies in that matched seems to help. But I am not sold and would like advice. Also, is there any way to shore up the miracles match? If that gets big post DRS ban?
Marungo, that is entirely true and irritating about Path. You have to know your opponent’s deck quite well to risk it. How many basics is this guy playing? How many are on the table so far? Why did he just fetch Volcanic when I am showing Wasteland? etc. There really is not any other removal that is nearly as good, so the risk is often worth it. The way we marginalize that risk is by doing what DnT players do: we study the format, pay attention to games, and outmaneuver our opponent.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Phil,
Thanks for your stream....saw your ridiculous Soldier Stompy and been testing it last night and today. I made some slight changes to main deck and board from your list, but it has been a beast for me in the current meta. Soldier Stompy tier 1? Haha....maybe not, but it has been rolling over decks for me. And I have mainly been testing vs tier 1 decks.
Anyway thanks again,
WD40
Here are the few changes I made:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Palace Jailer
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Daru Warchief
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Fairgrounds Warden
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Suppression Field
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Holy Light
3 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
That stream was a blast. Here's the link to the video for anyone who missed it. Those were some of the more interesting and unusual games of Legacy I've played in ages.
I don't want to derail conversation too much, but I don't think Bannaret is worth the card slots. It's a low impact card on its own, and since a bunch of your more expensive cards are WW, it doesn't actually accelerate you all that much unless you have multiple copies. I think the Responders are probably more important to help the Delver matchups and balance life life from Ancient Tomb.
Edit: @vtml1984
That sideboard is fine. The last maindeck slot doesn't matter all that much, so do a little testing and play what seems right to you. The metagame might shift a tiny bit between now and your event, so you might end up making small tweak anyway. I like THC the least of the options you presented though.
You know, I did not see all of this at first. I did not realize you were considering Path over Swords. Don't ever do that. It has been tried, debated, tried, debated over the years. Swords to Plowshares is consistently the better card in real-world scenarios by a wide margin.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
That looks crazy. I've known for years Suppression field was busted, and it was cool to see it in action. I did a brief thought experiment on whether that could work into an SFM-less build, but it interferes too much with the rest of our mana denial plan to work well, I think.
How did you feel about Soldier Stompy vs DnT overall? You clearly had fun in the stream and indicated you prefer DnT, but didn't really qualify it (though some might be extracted from your thoughts on the SFM-less DnT list). Can you be more specific about the specific strengths and weaknesses of Soldier Stompy versus DnT?
Soldier stompy is probably better against combo. It can turn 1 Thalia, THC, Suppression Field, Chalice, and Thorn. Some combination of those cards messes with your opponents enough to get there. D&T is going to be better against many fair fights; the equipment package, mana denial, and Flickerwisp give you much more game against the random stuff of the format.
Same deal as why Spire of Industry is more popular in Modern Affinity than Glimmervoid
Like sure, maybe against Burn the majority of the time your Glimmervoid won't die and losing 1-2 life in the game is more relevant.
But is this worth the times when your only turn 1 play is Glimmervoid + Creature (in any matchup) and you autolose to Push/Bolt? No.
Overall 1 land is way more important than a few extra life points
Thanks. That matches what I suspected about relative strengths, though I was having trouble putting into words why. It's interesting to compare the two, since they are simultaneously both so similar and different.
That stream was a lot of fun to watch. If I hadn't already been in on DnT, I might have looked to that deck instead. Thankfully, my love of equipment, individually powerful creatures, and Cataclysm trumps my desire to play a more straightforward aggro deck.
@Bahra
I really like the list and am going to start testing it locally. I was in New Mexico, so didn't see the last video until now, but the list seems more tuned.
Some maybe quick questions:
1. Have you played against Burn? If so, are 4 TGoT + 4 Wingmare feeling good? I don't play against Burn often, but I seem to face it 2x in my first 5 rounds every Open/GP in Baltimore.
2a. How is the DnT mirror? Is that helped significantly by 2x Pontiff, even without Revoker?
2b. Somewhat related, as traditional DnT is sort of a SfM deck, how do you feel about matches versus SfM decks with this build since you don't have Revoker or Pithing Needle?
3. Why PtE instead of StP in the sideboard? Is it the matches where you want it too often result in massive lifegain for limited results?
4. Do you want another spot for a 2nd Mindbreak Trap for Turn 1/2 combo decks other than Reanimator?
5. I want a 2nd Magus main, but what gets dropped? I think it is Daredevil -1 because isn't that card a bit tough to get value on with all the non-creature spells cost +1?
1. Yes but only a few times, I'm undefeated in 2-3 matches. The mana denial is super strong, and blanking their smash to smithereens is extremely good as they tend to board it in and I guess it's a card that makes them keep mediocre hands. Dire Fleet Daredevil is insane as well.
2a. I'll be honest, it's not good in game 1. Game 2 & 3 I feel extremely favored though, I'd say I'm probably favored across the match but that's easy to say, so take it with a grain of salt.
2b. Which stoneforge decks exists besides D&T?
3. PtE because the match ups where I want it, either the basic doesn't matter or they don't have them. I mainly board it in against Eldrazi, Delver, Turbo depths, reanimator. I do board them in in the mirror where they are a liability but I feel like the upside of no life gain in the other match ups, is more important in the big picture.
4. I don't know it's hard to make room for it, I want the mirror to be good, but this version is way better against fast combo, though still pretty bad probably.
5. hmmmmm, I don't think it's right to play more than 1 magus, it's super good in certain match ups, but it doesn't fit the plan of having efficient beaters that present a clock from very early in the game. If you had to then probably Daredevil but I wouldn't do it personally.
Thanks for the replies.
Bant Stoneblade and Deathblade still see some play, though not like they used to.
Hello everybody,
I went 4-3 at an 80 people Legacy event on saturday, playing the RW Dire fleet Daredevil version. I went greedy and added 2 Orzhov Pontiff in the side, just castable on Caverns and Vials. I thought I would share a few thoughts on how it went down.
Round 1: versus WW DnT. Game 1 he drew the best part of his deck, with Vial/jitte and 3 Flickerwisps. Could not do much. Game 2 went a little longer, but in the end he connected with Jitte, and I was out of the game. It also felt actually bad to have to path to exile twice in the early game, giving him an edge in the land counts. But I guess that's variance. I didn't see any of my red cards. We both had pontiffs, I saw mine but they were too little too late. It always feel a little bad to be paired versus other DnT players, as we're only the few of us. My opponent went on to top8, which is great! And then he got paired versus the Elves player in 1/4 finals...
Lost 2-0
Round 2: versus Man of Steel, or Steel Stompy. Never played this matchup, and it just felt horrible. Game 1 he went out big, by turn 5 or 6 he had multiple bodies with 3+ power, I was overwhelmed. Game 2 I got there with some combination of Flickers and Thalia's. Game 3, I felt the real power of Arcbound Ravager. He went on a massive out with 3 of those and Walking Ballista. Was never even close. Magus of the Moon and the overall mana denial strategy is not good in the matchup. The only relevant cards seem to be Flicker and Revoker, plus spot removal, but they usually eat Chalice on 1 as well. Difficult matchup, I hope this deck does not see too much play further down the road haha.
Lost 2-1
Round 3: versus Monoblue TNN deck. This was a weird deck, with snapcasters only there to flash ponder's and spell snare's. But it still encompassed 4 TNN, 2 Jitte and 2 SFi, which was an absolute nightmare. Game 1 I couldn't race. Game 2&3, I won but by a slight margin, and only thanks to the 2 Pontiff's, which did an amazing job. The caverns felt great as well, as his plan seemed to be to counter everything and then slam TNN. I also must dedicate one of the wins to the Daredevil, which flashed a ponder and found me the Pontiff I absolutely needed to get rid of 2 TNN's threatening lethal. It was the first time I saw the card that day.
Won 2-1
Round 4: versus Infect. Obviously, I got paired versus another very difficult matchup. The games went very close, and it was a lot of fun. I didn't see Magus, but Daredevil's first strike ability was great, plus he got me some free cards and game plan advantage casting Gitaxian Probe.
Lost 2-1
Round 5: versus Grixis Delver. I finally get paired versus a fair blue deck. And here the deck felt awesome. Magus cut my opponent off mana, Direfleet bolted Delvers, Cabal therapied pyromancers ... Fun matches, and I never felt overwhelmed, but in game 2, where I got "delvered", but this happens.
Won 2-1
Round 6: versus UW Miracles, encompassing Back to Basics maindeck. This matchup was really tricky. We went on to play very long games. Game 1, BtB and an overall 6 Swords to Plowshares were too much. Game 2, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar took over the game. Game 3, a combination of Vryn Wingmare and Thalia, plus Council Judgement's on BtB locked my opponent out of the game. It was the second time today that Vryn and Thalia felt really good (the other being versus Infect). Daredevil did get me some card advantage by flashing ponders, plus it being a 2/1 first strike for CMC 2 mattered. It got some hits alongside Thalia starting turn 3, putting some pressure on my opponent, which felt great.
Won 2-1
Round 7: versus Grixis Control. Here again, Magus of the Moon did the job, alongside DnT's usual gameplan of taxing into equipment, into hitting harder than the opponent. The games went smoothly, the deck felt great and I got some fun tricks out of Daredevil.
Won 2-0
Overall; Magus of the Moon feels great against most deck in the formats. It gives us some free wins, which is always welcome, plus it usually disrupt's our opponents' plans enough for us to take over the game with the other creatures/equipment. And even just the threat of Magus lead some opponents to agressively fetch their basics, or play around it, thus playing suboptimally, which is something no to underestimate in Legacy. I will definitely continue playing the RW version, as long as the metagame stays as greedy as it is (Deathrite Shaman, I'm looking at you).
Now, for Dire fleet Daredevil, well. The card is definitively surprising. It is great in all fair matchups, plus it can be a huge edge versus black combo decks (Storm) or Punishing fire decks. Now, not much that hadn't been said before; the card is by time clunky, or faces an empty graveyard, or Thalia tax, or Ethersworn cannonist on board, and so on. The card is, in my opinion, not consistent enough. Yet, as it is a lot of fun, and we deserve to have some, plus it fits rather well in the RW shell, I think I'll adopt it a little longer. I will give it the chance to either fully convince me, or fully prevent me from sleeving it anymore.
Orzhov Pontiff seems necessary as well. It's just such a clean answer to our real nemesis, TNN, and all the random x/1 cards that float around. It even was good versus Man of Steel. If everybody is getting greedy, maybe we should too, and up a little the number of caverns (go to 3) and play the Pontiff.
Also, Vryn Wingmare felt good all day long, so it'll stay in the main. I might consider a copy of Sanctum Prelate somewhere in the 75 tough, as it still is a better lock piece versus combo. Versus Infect for instance, Vryn was good, but Sanctum would have taken over the game, preventing my opponent to cast Invigorate.
I'm curious about the increasing prevalence of the following SB card array: 3x PtE, 3x RiP, 1x Containment Priest, and 1x Recruiter. I'm on 2x, 2x, 2x, and none, respectively.
I understand Recruiter acts as an extra copy of anything, which seems fine for Relic-Warder or Crusader, but far too slow for something like CP. Similarly, I see CP as very flexible for a lot of the same things as PtE or RiP might be (Reanimator, Elves, SnS, etc.).
Am I overvaluing CP, undervaluing RiP and PtE, or is this really just a metagame call?
Also, I've thoroughly digested the TU FAQ on Cataclysm vs Gideon AoZ. It leaves one with the impression that this is also a metagame call. But I was wondering if anyone has found that a specific builds works better with one versus the other (for instance: "In the 4x Crusader build, Cataclysm is always better," or something similar).
That's a change that I made. It's just a port of the sideboard I've been running in rw. People are copying it. I wouldn't read too much into it beyond that. The Recruiter is really there for matchups like Czech Pile with the *upside* that it's good in other places rather than explicitly trying to be extra copies of hate cards.
Generically, I'm liking Cata over Gideon right now.
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