My heart always belongs to Cataclysm in this spot, but I figured for a big stakes tournament lets go something mostly objectively better.Originally Posted by Borgur
In my eyes Gideon comes in for every grindy matchup, and a few others where threat density is relevant (eldrazi) and nearly always functions only as 0: Make a 2/2.
This weekend I brought it in against Pile, BUG Control, Miracles and Eldrazi, occasionally i'll bring it in against lands too. I almost never -4, i've found that most of the matchups where that mode is relevant Gideon is generally too slow anyways, so hes far better as a threat maker.
Regarding changes, I'm not quite sure. I need to find an additional card that makes the grixis/pile/control matchups feel good, crusader is huge against everything but bolt, but getting stonewalled by TNN (or worst case attacking in with sword and having that eat an abrupt decay and then have crusader die to TNN) is very rough. Next couple weeks i'm going to be experimenting at the weeklies with some 100% garbage plans just to try and get a feel for what may be good.
Thanks James! Was great we got to hang out on that last night - maybe next time i'll make it over to a tournament in your neck of the woods
You're likely correct, it was just a quick list. It should probably be -1 mangara -1 aven for another wingmare and 1 crusader or hallowed spiritkeeper
Paladin en-Vec
I'm just going to throw that out there vs. the Pile and Grixis match up. Diabolic Edict is the only thing that kills it and they can't block it with much.
Serra Avenger is the ticket to beat TNN and and also great against Young Pyromancer.
Congratulations on your finish. With you list, I suggest
-3 Mirran Crusader
-2 Cavern of Souls (optional and a meta call, but non-Cavern lands are better with Angels)
+1 Horizon Canopy (helps out with Angel and card draw but also damage - this slot is optional and can remain Cavern of Souls)
+1 Ghost Quarter (a 5th Wasteland vs. Grixis Delver and also good vs. many matchups where they run a handful of basics because they will fetch them all and your Ghost Quarters and Path to Exiles will have nothing to fetch)
+2 Serra Avenger
+1 Paladin en-Vec (really improves the Czech Pile and Grixis match-ups)
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I used to run this until I saw the TU Humans podcast that ran Auriok Champion. Since then, I've switched. It's worse versus Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental, and Marsh Casualties, and better versus everything else.
Yeah, I'll stream a proper D&T build with Auriok Champion sometime next week probably. I've been wanting to test that, this week is just crazy.
I've been wondering if Brimaz is good right now for the same reason as Bahra has been playing Hallowed Spiritkeeper. Brimaz is hard to block, doesn't die to bolt, is a solid defender, generates the kitty-kat parade whether attacking or blocking, and isn't killed by TNN alone on a block, which is also races. Then again, Spiritkeeper might just be better thanks to the draw. Both seem like cards you want against Mircles.
Anyone have a link for that UW list?
If you drop SFM package, is Honor of the Pure maindeckable?
Should Revoker be replaced with SotL?
Last edited by redtwister; 04-11-2018 at 01:01 PM.
Spiritkeeper was never good in the previous meta because Miracles either removed it from the game or tucked it to the bottom of your library, never killing it and getting the trigger. It's better now that BUGx decks tend to be grindy and kill lots of creatures but I'm still not convinced the card is that good either. But I still think it has more value than Brimaz.
Brimaz was an excellent counter to Miracles but right now I personally see more value in Mirran Crusader.
About the SFM-less builds in general, I think they're interesting but the main downside is that they fold extremely hard to any kind of -1/-1 effect, so while they might be good for an unknown metagame (like a GP) where nobody will pack Golgari Charm or Dread of Night, nor play WB/r Taxes with Pontiff, I wouldn't bring it to a known meta like your LGS. It should perform well in MODO as the meta is more blue and combo oriented than paper.
I am tinkering with a build that MBs Honor of the Pure and Hallowed Spiritkeeper. The former does a lot to thwart +X/-1 effects. Spice is good mono-White triggers for Spiritkeeper.
Didn't Bahra just 5-0 a league with a 75 that included Honor of the Pure ?
Found it:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1029110#paper
@AsmodeusDM
Yeah, I have been watching all of Bahra and Medea's DnT leagues, either live or the videos. Very, very interesting stuff and I am trying to settle on a build for Baltimore Team Trio in May, where I will be on DnT.
Honor has been a lot of value out of the board, but I was thinking of putting it in the main in place of SfM. And no, there is no good way to search for enchantments that comes even close to SfM, only Aura fetchers, and most of the Aurus stink.
Benalish hero. Too bad this guy has triple white mana cost.
Honor of the Pure has definitely impressed me more than I expected it would. I don't know if you were around for the stream where I talked about this, but I'm really liking Enchantments in this metagame. They're just impossible for most decks to remove right now.
This is my decklist:
[DECK]
Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 sword of war and peace
[/DECK]
Todayi had my first tournament with D&T, it didn`t go too well...but it was my first time with this deck.
1) D&T vs Bye
2) D&T Vs Miracles 1-1 grindy match up, made some careless mistakes
3)D&T Vs Miracles 0-2. Missed some importamt card interactions
4) D&T Vs Infect 1-2: learn to use only the spell that you need( removal, 1 cretaure +equip)
5) D&T vs Dresge 0-:2 i won thanks to talia and co, second game he dredge all of his removal so i won
pretty shynthetic report i know, I am using the Mono w version for budget reason(plateau)
Last edited by Zorker; 04-15-2018 at 02:56 PM.
3-1-1 isn't it worth a top 8? I mean, it's decent considering this was your first time with the deck.
I also had a relatively unimpressive showing at a 50-ish man tournament today, going 3-3 with my own weird little monoW list.
2-0 MonoR Sneak Stompy
-Stalking Leonin was awesome here, plus Displacer flickering Recruiter for chump blocks and value, Vial didn't make an appearance.
0-2 Cloudpost MUD
-MUD is awkward when you drop 1cc spot removal... and they turn 2 Wurmcoil, t3 Empyrion, t4 Ugin, again Vial was out sick.
0-2 BUG Delver
-he had too many answers game 1, and too many wastelands game 2, and I didn't draw enough plains. Surprising considering I'm running 12. One Vial got dazed, but at least it showed up.
0-2 BRg Reanimator
-again the lack of 1cc spot removal spites me as I have Karakas vs Chancellor reveal + T2 Sire. Fun matchup though, he had no discard outlets game 2 so he reanimated my Thalia until Sire could come out to play. Vial should've been thrown at the Chancellor trigger game 1, as it would've allowed Thalia to shut off Exhume... but hindsight is 20/20.
2-0 RUG Delver
-Leonin rules again, combined with Mirran strolling past his green dudes and Prelate@1 shutting off his bolts. Running 8 maindeck 3/3s with 2 more SB is nice when your opponent counts on Mongoose/Goyf for damage. Vial came out to play here, mostly for 'haste'.
2-1 MonoR Sneak
-he had a dinosaur flavor to all his dudes that made it a fun matchup, but my list had too much beef for even that much fat to kill. Leonin worked overtime. Vial helped a lot, finally.
Overall I was pretty happy with it, but I'm going to test that Arbiter version with Quarters and Paths. Port doesn't pull its weight in a format run by Elf Shamans. If you guys haven't tried the Leonin out, you should. Even if all he does is prevent them from attacking, it's often enough.
Last edited by DarthVicious; 04-15-2018 at 03:55 PM.
I have been playing the Arbiter + GQ build and my main issues are as follows:
1. Sometimes you still don't mana screw them.
2. Arbiter is a terrible attacker.
3. Still more or less loses to TNN because you can't race it.
4. Really in trouble vs. TNN + Gurmag Angler.
One issue I have with the various builds without SfM package is just being forced to out-grind my opponent without the power of Jitte/Batterskull/SoFaI and Arbiter + Mindcensor is especially bad at that by themselves.
I also felt like I had a lot less to work with adding in 4 GQ, 4 Arbiter, 2 Mindcensor. It still doesn't play nicely with Cavern of Souls because then you are short of W sources and WW is still complicated. Maybe it could be build better than mine was.
With the fair drs blue decks sitting at the top of the Legacy metagame currently, the builds of D&T cutting the sfm package make a lot of sense to me. We should have a better chance in those matchups if we're not opening ourselves up to getting blown out in terms of tempo and/or value. I love connecting with jitte or sofai as much as the next mom-lover, but it doesn't seem reliable currently. The builds that cut sfm and equipment for additional threatening/disruptive creatures sound appealing. The deck becomes closer to modern humans, to some extent.
Bahra's red splash build that he got 3rd with in the Legacy Challenge last weekend looks good for sure, but the 5-0 list posted by Egget yesterday looks great too.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-04-14
Having access to Pontiff is great, and Bahra even dips into a 3rd color for it. I'm wary of the double splash however.
The Wb build also has 4 dark confidant as another great turn 2 play. Along with the 4 thalia and 2 spirit of the labyrinth, that's a higher density of proactive plays for turn 2. The Wr build has Daredevil in the bob slot, and while I think Daredevil is great, it's typically not a 2 mana play (vial can change this, of course). Basically, the curve of the Wb build looks better to me.
Kambal is a nice pickup too, and I definitely like having access to 2 in the 75, but the real spice comes in with the disciple of bolas. I'd love to get Egget's take on how that card performed, especially in combination with hallowed spiritkeeper. These grindy elements seem great for combating czech pile, though perhaps disciple is overkill. I wonder if there are other good ways to sac spiritkeeper that we'd be interested in playing (preferably costing 3 or less).
Looking over Soldier Stompy, I am curious if Aerial Responder isn't just a better choice than Serra Avenger. [EDIT: Nevermind, it has been FANTASTIC for me. See below.]
In common:
WW
Vigilance
Flying
Neither one can be searched with Recruiter.
Serra Avenger is only CMC2, but without Vial, it cannot be cast before turn 4. Plus many decks are now going in heavy on CMC3, so they want to tick up to 3.
Responder is CMC3, but can be cast turn 3 and is a Soldier (in common with TGoT and Recruiter) if Cavern is in the deck. However, most importantly, lifelink. I feel like that is a very powerful ability and races actually slightly better than 3/3, since it is a 4 point swing each turn. It effectively reduces TNN to a 1 damage per turn creature.
Unrelated question [EDIT: I lied, it was a related question, see below]: If you were running Enlightened Tutor again for some reason, would you run Horizon Canopy?
Build I am testing, has run very well vs. Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Much tweaking ongoing, but so far Aerial Responder is exceedingly good (I raced a TNN with it and Mom out, which felt quite amazing; any other creature and I would have lost.) HotP is great, and ET is surprisingly powerful with the targets I have (Vials, HotP, Jitte, SotL, Revoker main.)
Right now, the only cards I am on the fence about are
Jitte (which is still very, very good as a card and tutorable in this build)
Phyrexian Revoker (tutorable tech, but still what it is)
Hallowed Spiritkeeper
Spirit of the Labyrinth (as usual)
Cards I would like but that I am unsure if they are good enough:
Brimaz, King of Oreskos (really powerful with HotP, very good against certain kinds of decks, and I love me some kitty-kat parade, but not Recruiter-able, so would it have to be in multiples? Competing with Spiritkeeper and probably 1 Mirran Crusader, but that drops my Recruiter targets. then again, 90% of my recruiting is for Flickerwisp, so...)
Selfless Spirit (as much as anything because it is a 2/1 1W flyer, so it bolsters the CMC 2 creature spot a bit)
Cavern of Souls (I love Canopy, so I don't feel bad about it, but Cavern on Soldier or Human is very good. Don't want to drop to 13 true W sources, however.)
Judge's Familiar (the little bird has over-performed against Delver and combo and is another nice one with HotP, making it easier to get out)
I don't want to put in too many creatures that sacrifice themselves, but with Hallowed or Brimaz, it seems ok, since both get value from it, especially if it keeps them alive when I need them to.
i have actually considered Settle the Wreckage in the sideboard, but it seems like it doesn't get there against Elves and what else would I want it against besides the mirror and Stoneblade\Deathblade? And there, Ratchet Bomb might be just a good, right?
Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
10 Plains
Creatures 24
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Judge's Familiar
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Aerial Responder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
Instant 6
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
Artifact 5
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Enchantment 2
2 honor of the Pure
Sideboard
3 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest In Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
Last edited by redtwister; 04-17-2018 at 12:27 PM.
Here's a tournament report by William Schlichting from the GP.
Aerial Responder over Serra Avenger? Huh... that's not as crazy as it sounds. 2 power is enough for most purposes, and being able to block with Lifelink is quite good. The one time I can really see it really hurting is in the mirror, where it straight-up loses fights to Avenger. Also, on the most aggressive Vial draws, Avenger can put through a fair amount of extra damage. That said, I could totally see this, and will make it a point to get two copies. If it works, it could also lower my incentive to keep an Auriok Champion in the board, giving me an extra slot to tinker with.
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