I've been tinkering a bit lately (though without putting anything concrete into tournament practise), and was re-exploring options for a WU variant. As a result, I think that a card that stirred up the D&T community back in 2009 (but ultimately failed to make a dent) might be worth re-exploring: Aven Mimeomancer. It's an evasive beater that's recruitable and doesn't strain a splashy manabase too much, and can turn everything that's targetable into a Flickerwisp-like body. This makes the Recruiter of the Guard that just tutored it up into a 3/1 flyer. It turns Thalia, Guardian of Thraben into legendary Vryn Wingmare with +1/+0 and First Strike. It makes Mirran Crusader fly into the opponent's face for 6. And can you imagine it joining forces with Geist of Saint Traft? On top of that, it even has defensive capabilities: A 3/1 Griselbrand is a lot less scary than the full version, and a 3/1 Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker hybrid might also be preferable over the respective real thing, esp. in face of Jitte counters. I get it that the deck is weak to -1/-1 effects and that Aven Mimeomancer isn't exactly an antidote to that, but I'm pretty positive that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. What do you think? :)
Speaking about manabases... has anyone of you ever considered dropping Rishadan Ports and go for Back to Basics instead? The proper Karakas count would have to be re-evaluated of course, but on the back of Aether Vial and the basic-heavy lands one could play in a WU list, this might be doable. I get that Thalia is an obstacle to making this happen, but if you're in the position that one hate-piece of yours is hating on the other, you're probably on a good trajectory towards winning that game anyway.
Other potentially interesting cards a mild U splash (I tried a rather heavy one for Geist of Saint Traft and True-Name Nemesis, and I found the manabase not being able to cope well with the UU cost of the latter) are:
Arctic Aven
Sygg, River Guide
Spellstutter Sprite
Spell Queller
@colo
I say throw a list together. Mimeomancer + Spell Queller seems interesting.
I am quite interested in the Egget list. I get why people wont play the SFM package, but I feel like the revokers are to good to not play atleast 2 in the 75. How do you guys feel about this? Or is it really meta depend?Originally Posted by cursecatcher
My opinion on Revokers is that they are good in the main but rarely what you want in the side. The best way DnT can own matchups is with many generic [often weak] answer-like effects in the main on creatures. Once you know your opponent you can swap some of those weak answers out for stronger ones from the board. You end up with less offense, but a more attuned deck for that opponent. Revokers clearly fit the category of main deck answers.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
While that is an accurate analysis of Phyrexian Revoker, Spirit of the Labyrinth is now a stronger candidate for a "weak" generic answer in the main deck. Mainly because of it being white and not an artifact.
yes I agree that Revoker is a maindeck answer, not good in the SB. I feel that it answers so much random cards from your opponents that I atleast want 2 in the main in a unknown meta.
@colo:
Cool ideas. I'm not crazy about B2B; running it would basically require abandoning our utility lands and running basic Islands--Magus of the Moon seems a mana disruption plan that suits us better. But Even Mimeomancer looks great, as does Spell Queller. Blue has decent SB options as well.
Regarding Revoker versus SotL, I'm quite torn. Both do fill that roll of weak disruption to common strategies. I think SotL is useful against more opponents right now, but Revoker may be useful against more threatening abilities (including in the mirror and against PWs). I'm actually not sure which is better right now.
Bahra, I’m sure you are correct about Spirit if the Lab being stronger. I just don’t want guys going for Revokers in the side. It is a weak answer.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
@Medea_
Saw that stream from last night. Ouch.
I'm curious, do you think that not getting shuffles from SFM hampers the deck? That was an insane amount of flooding and dead drawing.
Also, thoughts on value from Familiar vs. SotL vs. Revoker?
@bahra/Finn
I realize SotL is quite powerful as times, but against equipment Blade decks and in the mirror, SotL isn't very good and Revoker is kinda huge.
That's a very good point, which I missed. Revoker should never be in the sideboard of D&T (I can't imagine a meta where it would be appropriate).
Super revised post.
What I like (and miss) about SFM (valid conerns about the weakness of equipment to all of the artifact removal aside):
1. Our other 2 drops not named Thalia or Serra Avenger are much worse and not 4-of worthy.
(Revoker is situational, but basically is a Pithing Needle that sometimes gets to attack and is actually best against combo decks; Spirit of the Labyrinth is situational, but dies to even more stuff opponents run against us than Revoker and just seems really stupid with 3 power but no real ability to defend or attack unless the board is completely empty (turns out that if it was a 1/1 first strike, it would have been ten times better, much less a 1/3 or something); Selfless Spirit? What are we running that against? And why are two of our best flyers cards that sacrifice themselves (this and Familiar)?; Canonist is so amazing (against combo) when he doesn't suck (every non-combo match??); Jotan Grunt... um, I don't know. Haven't tried it. Didn't it used to be in the deck when the CMC2 selection was even worse? Won't your opponent just DRS away 1 card and force you to sac him to his own upkeep cost? Did I miss any other "playable" 2-drops that make Stoneforge Mystic look like the best thing since sliced bread?
2. You can play equipment without having to get around the Thalia tax. That goes double if you want to 'Vryn Wingmare it up', at which point HotP just feels bad. Nothing like having 3 lands, Thalia and Wingmare and an HopT in hand and they play Gurmag Angler (not taxed even a little by them). If only I had a Jitte to equip to Thalia, I could take that thing out.
3. Its a freakin creature, so it plays well with Vial. If I have HotP in hand and vial on 2 and no 2-drop creature, I have to use up a possible Port or Plow. You might only have to cast it once (whereas SFM is like a Vial and two 2 mana activations, or possibly 3 2 mana activations), but you also aren't getting a free card, thinning your deck, getting a shuffle, etc.
4. 2 and 3 combined make me feel like HotP interferes with the tax plan more than SFM, mana sink or not.
5. Stoneforge brings game-ending power to the table, taking a white weenie and making it Larry Bird. Is that
awful? And really old? HotP is a way to get power to the board, but if we drop SFM and HotP, does DnT have enough power to actually win games before the soft locks break? Besides, doesn't Crusader feel so much worse as a 2/2 you know will never, ever wear a SoFaI or Jitte? It's like never seeing Ryan Reynolds or Morena Baccarin wearing nothing but Christmas sweaters. What a wasted opportunity!
6. It's a creature, so even if it can't do anything else, it can swing for 1. HotP doesn't do squat without creatures. Also, SFM with Jitte gets around Ensnaring Bridge.
The bad CMC 2 situation makes me feel like Mystic is still just the hotness.
That said:
Medea_ suggested, and maybe this is accurate, that if you pursue the HotP/no SFM build, it might be necessary to lower the land count. Now, he did flood absolutely horribly on that last stream and it could have been variance, however if it is not variance and if the correct move is to go to say 21 lands with that build, how would any of you do it?
For example, can we still do 8 colorless lands if we max out at 13 W sources? Isn't that still quite mathematically risky, even if you are no longer sinking mana into SFM, with multiple 1WW creatures?
Spells 11
4 Vial
4 StP
3 HotP
Lands 21
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
10 Plains/Snow Plains
Creatures by CMC 28
CMC1 6
4 Mom
2 Judge's Familiar (I sort of love this card)
CMC2 10
4 Thalia
2 Serra Avenger (greedy much, Mrs. 21 Lander?)
Oh seriously, WTH people!?!? Is this the best we can do without Stoneforge? Fine, ugh...
2 Revoker
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
And if you just stink of desperation...
Canonist
Selfless spirit (kills itself to save a creature... but not if they died to sacrifice, exile or -1/-1 effects...)
Leonin Arbiter (needs its own build, still probably not that good, definite nonbo with Recruiter, but Maybe the HotP build ought to be the Arbiter/GQ Build?)
Oh, wait, Dire Fleet Daredevil! Doh! Red card. Is it me of does a RW HotP deck sound kinda bad?
CMC3 (way too many and lots of WW for a 13 W source deck) pick 12, starting with these 9.
4 Flickerwisp (1WW)
3 Mirran Crusader (1WW)
2 Recruiter of the Guard
pick some:
Another Mirran Crusader (1WW)
Vryn Wingmare
Aerial Responder (stop laughing at me Bahra, it races stupid TNN even without equipment!!!) (1WW)
Oh, wait, Magus of the Moon! Doh! Red card. Is it me of does a RW HotP deck sound kinda bad?
Last edited by redtwister; 04-19-2018 at 06:15 PM.
I'm writing an article about this now. I think either SFM needs to stay in the deck as a mana sink or there needs to be drastic other changes to the deck to compensate for not having it.
This is an interesting line of inquiry indeed.
Now I'm not saying it's at all competitive but I've been having a bit of fun playing a Wr Angel/Flametongue Kavu/DnT Stompy hybrid following your Soldier Stompy shenanigans. The most interesting thing about it has been playing a full playset of Recruiters alongside 2 SfM, Jitte and SoFaI.
I wonder if a similar approach could work in an HotP list such as the ones you've been toying with. Maybe not the half SfM package (as I suppose part of the point is to experiment doing without it altogether) but certainly the playset of Recruiters — it's a great late game topdeck, mana sink, improves with HotP on the board, and importantly having 4 kind of makes up for the loss of manipulation and card advantage from cutting the SfM's. To be clear I'm not talking about using the playset in a toolbox build but more for redundancy. Admittedly, it's not a two drop for sure, but just thought I'd throw this out there.
This is a list I threw together after watching the stream and thinking about it:
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
3 Honor of the Pure
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Aerial Responder
4 Flickerwisp
3 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
Sideboard:
1 Auriok Champion
2 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Holy Light
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Path to Exile
1 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Rest in Peace
It cuts to 21 Lands, which used to be stock-standard for white weenie, once upon a time. It's pretty close to what Medea_ ran last night, with a slightly different board and a few extra creatures in the MB.
It might be worth your time to check the math on hitting WW on t3 with 21 lands, 8 of which are colorless.
I'm not 100% certain who's doing things "wrong", but this is what I get running simulations:
This is what Chris Cunningham's script says:Code:Setup: 60 cards in your deck. 21 lands, 13 of those coloured mana sources. 4 Aether Vials. Probabilities for: Seen at least 3 mana sources (at least 2 coloured) on your n-th turn OR having an Aether Vial with 3 counters on your n-th turn. T3 T4 T5 68.08% 84.98% 89.80%
I am not entirely certain where the turn 3 discrepancy comes from. I'll have a look at both scripts again tonight. For the time being, you can find and run my implementation here: https://repl.it/@Skudo/PoisedQuirkyClosedsourceCode:- Decklist - 60 card deck. - 21 lands. - 4 vials. - 3 CMC spell with 2 color requirement, so the casting cost is like 1WW - 13 colored land sources supporting the spell. - Mulligan Strategy - C = 7 cards. Conclusion: 0.8205204945576854 keep, 0.1794795054423161 mull - C = 6 cards. Conclusion: 0.8220207550915984 keep, 0.17797924490840328 mull - C = 5 cards. Conclusion: 0.8459580423882616 keep, 0.15404195761173836 mull - C = 4 cards. Conclusion: Always keep if we get this low somehow. - Distribution of keepable hand sizes - 4 card keeps: 0.0049 - 5 card keeps: 0.0270 - 6 card keeps: 0.1475 - 7 card keeps: 0.8205 Probability that (on the play) we either have mana to cast or a vial high enough for: Creature Spell, cost 1WW ( CMC 3 ) Yes No Turn 3 - 0.5680 0.4320 Turn 4 - 0.8320 0.1680 Turn 5 - 0.8809 0.1191
My guess would be that one of us (likely me) blundered when calculating the probabilities for having 1WW on turn 3.
I've had fun with Thalia 2.0 I think it is definitely something DnT should be running two of. I've played 3, Thalia and Thalia side by side is kinda sick. Obviously an opposing Karakas is a bust but, you can put a real hurting on Grixis delver with them. Has anyone ever tried a trio of Chrome Mox for acceleration? Sometimes I feel like I'm just a turn behind from taking the game over. It would give you something to do with excess Thalia's. All opinions welcomed.
P.S. I play Goblins as well and I'm actually not a fan of the winstigator list.
His script also has mulligan scenarios, so my first guess would be that a lot of the margin there is 'bad hands that your script still keeps', that still end up satisfying the 1WW criteria. The hypergeometric math for WW on 10 cards with 13 white sources is 69%, so presumably 1WW would be a tad lower, but not much.
Anyway, there's no way that a 21 land deck should have more 3 drops than 2 drops.
I'm applying more restrictive mulligan rules than he does: In addition to his mulligan strategy
I require a coloured mana source in hand for 7 and 6 card starting hands.Code:# (by default, keep 2-5 mana source 7s with at least one land, # keep 2-4 mana source 6s with at least one land, # keep 1-4 mana source 5s with at least one land, # mulligan all hands with 3+ vials, # keep all 4-card hands because whatever)
Regardless of this, I do think the 3-slot is crowded and being unable to play a 3-drop (that's not Recruiter) in 43%-32% of all games definitely is not where I'd want to be.
@iatee
Yeah, all of that seems correct.
I would probably go like this (and yes, I think if you go with HotP, Enlightened Tutor in the main is completely reasonable):
Lands 21
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains
CMC1 15
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Judge's Familiar
1 Enlightened Tutor
CMC2 13
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Honor of the Pure
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
CMC3 11
4 Flickerwisp
2 Aerial Responder
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
The upside is that this build is probably very good game 1 against Combo, possibly even Elves. The downside is that it still has a difficult time finishing quickly, and thus finds Gurmag + TNN to be very hard to beat.
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