While I do acknowledge Honor of the Pure's potential power, I feel like there's a lot of it wasted if the only token-producer you have is a (tutorable) miser Hallowed Spiritkeeper. In a list featuring this day and age's Crusade, I believe Brimaz, King of Oreskos is a must, since it ups the pump effect's ceiling considerably.
I got a 5-0 and two 4-1's today with this.
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Cataclysm
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Rest in Peace
3 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Recruiter of the Guard
I have to agree that shaila + active mom is a nightmare for our opponent.Originally Posted by Medea_
If only we had a way to Activate this shalia's ability (No. two forests is not a good idea).
Activating that ability requires many green sources, so it could look something like a green suite:
24 Lands
5 fetches
4 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Shalai
2 Brimaz
2 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Revoker
2 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge
4 Thalia
4 Mother of Runes
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Fire and Ice
SB
Carpet of Flowers
Gaddock Teeg
Choke
Sylvan Library
etc
Choke and Carpet of Flowers look like decent cards right now (especially Carpet if we use Shalai)
It is cute certainly.
I was also looking to a cute blue build with the thought of Aven Mimeomancer:
23 Lands
5 fetches
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Paladin En-Vec
2 Aven Mimeomancer
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
1 Revoker
1 Deputy of Acquittals
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge
4 Thalia
4 Mother of Runes
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Fire and Ice
SB
Meddling Mage
Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
Other Blue Bullets
OR OR OR Bird Tribal?!? (I put too much time into a joke....)
5 fetches
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Kangee, Aerie Keeper
1 Aven Sunstriker
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Aven Mimeomancer
2 Recruiter
3 Flickerwisp
3 Sage Owl
4 Stoneforge
4 Thalia
2 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Jitte
1 Fire and Ice
I had a similar thought, brought on in part by the fact that I like Qasali Pridemage as a 2-drop more than our 1W and WW options (aside from Thalia and Serra Avenger). I continue to have doubts about SFM-less DnT, however, because of the extra removal and aggression enabled by Jitte and SoFaI.
4 GW lands allows us to have some small chance of using Shalai's activated ability and Horizon Canopy feels good to me if we don't go with SFM because it gives us something to do with extra mana if we flood.
Pridemage's good qualities are many:
Exalted
Artifact and enchantment destruction (possibly increasingly relevant with Cloudpost, Stoneblade, Stompy decks with chalice, Lands, etc. on the rise, and also very good in the mirror)
Searchable
2 toughness
Lands 23
4 Port
4 Wasteland
5 Fetches
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
Creatures 19
CMC 3
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter
CMC 2
4 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Serra Avenger
CMC 1
4 Mother of Runes
CMC 4
1 Shalai
Spells 8
4 Vial
4 StP
That leaves open 10 spots that could be filled by some combination of the following:
3 SFM + Jitte + SoFaI
4 SFM + 3 equipment
Revoker
SotL
Palace Jailer
Mirran Crusader
Aerial Responder (yep, still testing this)
Renegade Rallier (seriously, a pretty darn good card if you go WG as it is 3/2, fetchable, gets a lot of our cards from the GY directly back to the field, such as Wasteland, Port, Vials, thalia, Mom, Jitte, etc.)
Wilt-Leaf Liege (if you go SFM-less, maybe this is better than HotP, as it is strong in game 1 vs. discard and still pumps)
Also opens up the following options in the sideboard:
Choke
Gaddock Teeg (good against Elves, Miracles, Storm)
I don't think Shalai's ability matters much. We're playing it for other reasons. I'd much prefer to play the GP Top 8 Maverick list over those ideas. I think GW D&T is a bit of a hard sell currently (he says as he realizes he has to do a GW Taxes bonus stream soon...).
I've considered going green as well for Ramunap Excavator and Rallier as well.
Teeg would be mained IMO.
But then yes, Maverick is a hard sell to not be in. I think if you keep the green splash to a minimum and focus on LD/land stuff without going deep green, I think it's worth testing.
Also Tireless Tracker.
I'm not sold on splashing G just means going to Maverick. G offers essentially two creatures that shore up the CMC2 slot and add value to the overall tax plan by allowing us to interact favorable with artifacts and hinder CMC4+ non-creature spells and cost X spells. I don't want to start all of the nonsense that Maverick does with DRS, 3 colors, no Flickerwisp, no Vial, etc. Possible Shalai activation is strictly bonus.
Given directions in the meta (Cloudpost Eldrazi and Dragon Stompy in particular, but also great in the mirror, fine against Omnitell), Pridemage seems just better than SotL as a 2-of in the main. I'm not sure you go much deeper main, though I am willing to test the very tutor-able Rallier, which also plays extra-nice with Wisp. Ramunap Excavator, on the other hand, is not tutor-able and I am not feeling it over other things we could do.
Also, if, if, SFM-less DnT continues to be a consideration, then WLL might really be the right choice, especially if Hymn and K-Command are on the up-tick (clearly, I am not sold on SFM-less, it has felt like too great of a power loss to not have the aggression, the lifegain, the removal, and card draw that all come with those three little artifacts.)
I do not want to run Sylvan Library either. It has been done, but I don't think that is what Recruiter-based DnT needs.
Not sure I want Teeg main. Maybe, but I feel like that is a sideboard card.
Plus, it really allows for a strong 2-drop curve.
Lands 23
4 Port
4 Wasteland
5 Fetches
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
Creatures 26
4 Thalia
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter
2 Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Serra Avenger
1 Shalai
1 Renegade Rallier
Spells 11
4 Vial
4 StP
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
That is 14 CMC2 creatures, 7 CMC3 and 1 CMC4. Now maybe Rallier and Shalai should just be Mirran Crusader, but I am pretty okay with this so far.
I am not saying it is better than Wr, but it does deal with some things that that deck does not, and it might still be strong enough against our main nemeses.
And before someone brings up the GW deck from the challenge...
"For anyone looking into Marius' 19th place GW Death & Taxes: he said it was horrible, Knight has turned out absolutely unplayable and he will never play the deck again. He's going back to Grixis Delver." - Julian
Completely believable. Funny quote. And I might go back to the Wr build you are running, but I will run the gauntlet with this over the next two days and let you all know.
Knight isn't all that impressive anymore in deathrite.format, never mind the megatons of strix, push and true-name running around. But he's exceptionally underwhelming in d&t, where your manabase is not even close to greedy enough to make his ability worthwhile.
I don't see why, if you're splashing, you'd go for green. Literally any other color has way more appealing options for a splash: black has pontiff, red has magus and P&K, blue has clique and asocial fish. Heck, even colorless has more denegerate options in thought-knot seer and displacer. Green has a bunch of creatures that will always make you think you really should be playing maverick to really get the most out of them.
Managed a 5-0 with this last night, and a 4-1 the night before:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1054885#paper
Shalai has been very good each time she's shown up.
24 lands feels great. I really like having 3-4 lands on time more often.
I might consider moving the Sanctum Prelate to the sideboard and putting the third Recruiter of the Guard or a second Vryn Wingmare in the maindeck.
Recruiter has been incredible, and I think it might be nice to have another payoff late game when there is a large number of lands in play.
Wingmare is just generically good against the format. Phil's right, stacking it on top of Thalia slows blue decks to a crawl. It also might be a good thing to have two copies of.
I only ran into Delver once, and I got there, but I do want to play that matchup a bit more to see if the matchup is still good despite not having Serra Avenger.
The Problem:
I think Medea_ really captures the issue in his latest article on Thraben University
1. Many of the best cards against Deathrite decks are still weak to Deathrite decks
2. Many deck building decisions will make your deck better against Delver or Czech Pile, not both
All of the recent experimentation has been driven by two things: solving this meta, which on one side is solved insofar as Grixis Delver is just the best deck and yet not solved insofar as the meta is extremely diverse, which always presents a problem for a prison deck, alongside the serious vulnerability of the SFM package to artifact hate right now.
The Goal:
We need to find an angle of attack that allows us to be maximally disruptive and still able to efficiently end the game in a diverse format with a LOT of artifact hate.
By diverse, I do not simply mean a lot of decks, but many deck types that attack the game from different angles. It's not just Tempo, Control, Mid-Range and Aggro. It is Tempo (from AGGRO Control UR Delver to Aggro CONTROL Grxiis Delver), Aggro (e.g. Burn), classic Control (UW Control), mid-range emphasizing control elements (Pile), Big Aggro/Ramp Mid-Range Beatdown aka all the Stompy, classical mid-range (Stoneblade and Maverick in this format, not Jund), aggro creature combo (Elves), aggro spell combo (Storm), tempo Combo (Sneak and Show), Prison control combo (Lands), Tempo Prison (DnT), mid-range creature Combo (Aluren) and so on. This is a deep, complex format and while Grixis Delver is THE deck to beat, there are a lot of decks with 4-6% of the meta share that are not at all alike.
Getting There:
My interest in green was to see if it still had a good game against those two while adding value against other matchups. Pridemage is great against any decks with artifacts and enchantments, of which there are more than a few, once we leave DRS and Delver decks out, including the mirror and Stoneblade. Teeg is a house against big spells decks, from UW Control to Elves, Storm, and even Sneak and Show. The big problem I am running into is two-fold: G splash can't use Cavern of Souls and none of the GW cards actually help with (any) Delver or Pile and that isn't good enough.
So back to WW/Wr. There is a comparison of WW and Wr here that will show you the at times dramatically different results we seem to obtain based on going WW vs. Wr. also, there was no data there on Stoneblade, but that is back to 4% of the meta.
Lost of decks (Delver, UW Control, Burn, Infect, and Pile) have a lot of problems with Medea_'s recent Wr list with 4 Vryn Wingmare, and storm is pretty dead if we get to turn 3 with Thalia and Wingmare in play. That covers ~37% of the meta.
At the same time, Vryn Wingmare is terrible against Stompy (Eldrazi, Dragon, and Soldier, but the first two are still ~7% of the meta, quite a lot), Elves, DnT, BG dark Depths (I think? Similar to Lands?), Lands, and mediocre against Stoneblade. And Thalia isn't very good against those decks either. So now we have 8 cards that are not very good against 29% of the meta.
And there is the x/1 problem DnT always faces that this aggravates. Grixis Delver can still take out Thalia + Wingmare on turn 3 with a single Forked Bolt, which they seem to have way too often and if the Wingmare build ever became popular again, B decks can always just go back to Dread of Night and some already run Marsh Casualties, so for 4 mana, they can still get through (thank you DRS, the perfect vehicle.)
However, that build also runs Magus, which is a house against Lands, BG Dark Depths, and Eldrazi Stompy, very good against Grixis Delver and decent against Pile, so the deck has off-setting conditions, which it should.
What Any of My Builds MUST Have:
- Multiple Cavern of Souls. Against the blue decks this is just the land I want see. Beating Daze and FoW is huge game 1. Wr really gets a ton of value out of it, maybe even more than WW. This comes at a cost: WW gets more difficult and you can't run multiple Serra Avenger + 3-4 Flickerwisp in a deck with Wasteland-susceptible Plateaus.
- This also means I have to maximize my overlapping creature types, which in DnT is, in descending order of importance, Human (Mom, Thalia, Mirran Crusader, Dire Fleet Daredevil, Magus of the Moon, Containment Priest, Canonist, P+K, Recruiter, Palace Jailer, Cunning Sparkmage), Cleric (Mom, Relic-Warder, Containment Priest, Canonist), Soldier (Thalia, Palace Jailer, Aerial Responder, Recruiter).
- Flyers. Lots of flyers. 5 feels like an absolute minimum, not including P+K's ability to make 2. That is something I really like about the 4 Wingmare build: 7-8 flyers main. WW can go 6 easily enough with 2 Avenger, 4 Flickerwisp. My interest in Aerial Responder has been to put something like Avenger in Wr, but with a creature type we can name with Cavern without being embarrassed.
- A plan to beat TNN + Gurmag Angler, the two creatures I absolutely most hate to see, not including DRS, which is the New England Patriots of Legacy. These two goons are hard to deal with, come down fairly quickly, and end games speedily. I hate them more than Leovold, who is just disruptive and the master of the slow grind, but which is a mediocre threat. DRS is often a better threat than Leovold.
What Any Build Must ACCEPT:
- Stoneforge Mystic package. Maybe the right call right now is 3 SFM/Jitte+SoFaI, but I can't see playing the deck without at least that, despite the fun I had testing with HotP. But when you miss Batterskull, boy howdy do you miss Batterskull.
- DnT is no longer mostly CMC 2 creatures. When the correct build was 4 thalia/4 SFM/4 Revoker, the deck could also throw in 2+ Serra Avenger, maybe 1-2 SotL, and happily have 23 lands and Vial on 2 until you had a reason to tick it up. I don't think that is correct for any build now. We are closer to 4/4/2 or even 4/3/2 and no other 2 drops, with 2 Recruiter, 2, Magus 4 Wingmare, 3 Flickerwisp and a P+K in Wr or 2 Recruiter, 2-4 Mirran Crusader, 4 Flickerwisp, 1-2 Wingmare, 0-1 Sanctum Prelate, 0-1 Palace Jailer in WW. And now we might be tinkering with 0-2 Shalai.
- 24 Lands, tick vial to 3 unless you have 2 drops in hand you want to play assuming you are going to find more 3 drops than 2 drops.
What Isn't as Important as it SEEMS:
- Being a target for Recruiter. Honestly, Flickerwisp is by far the most frequent target. After that, it is Thalia, Crusader, Magus, Revoker, P+K, SFM or <pick a sideboard card>, in no particular order. The only question is, "What am I hosing?" We can easily run some cards we can't recruit for, especially if they are not 1-ofs we have to get all the time or something we can happily run in multiples.
Conclusion:
I think Wr is the way to go, but I think there are still some issues to work out, but maybe the point is that the diversity of the format means we can't work them all out.
Addendum:
Shalai, Voice of Plenty is an interesting card in this light, though it cannot be searched. With a Mom in play, it more or less ends games against a lot of decks.
Last edited by redtwister; 04-24-2018 at 02:12 PM.
Interesting analysis; thanks for taking the time to present your thoughts this carefully :) I'm not certain I agree with each of your conclusions, but I'll have to contemplate them in detail.
For the very real problems the deck faces and that you present, I'd like to ask the broader D&T community what you think about the following cards, and their potential of easing our pain:
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Celestial Crusader
Benalish Marshal
Apostle's Blessing
Linvala seems especially attractive - decent threat with respectable stats, combos with Karakas, shuts down Deathrite, flies over TNN et al. Benalish Marshall's colour requirements probably put it out of contention, but +1/+1 on a stick with a decent, Human body would have been so cool if it weren't for that :/ I'd also like to shine the spotlight on Apostle's Blessing once more, since many people seem not to be aware that this little spell can counter _any_ removal targeting creatures or artifacts.
I think we want more proactive rather than reactive cards. Apostle's Blessing only does its work if you manage to stick that awesome card it needs to protect. And even then, it trades just 1-for-1. Instead, being a deck of great redundancy, we want more threats that your opponent needs to remove (so he runs out of removal), which dodge removal altogether or which have an impact even if they get binned.
The marshal is similarly only really good when he can boost other creatures (and has an atrocious mana cost - a third of our lands can't help casting it). Crusader and Linvala bost cost 4, which is a pretty prohibitive cost. There are lists which include 4-drops, like P&K, Palace Jailer, Restoration Angel and now Shalai. Compared to these, Linvala seems quite limited in hosing power compared to Shalai - who is also easier to cast. And the others generate immediate value regardless of whether your opponent manages to deal with them, which is a critical upside for creatures in this deck.
In turn, let me offer you an alternative list; what do you think of the following:
Heliod, God of the Sun
Stillmoon Cavalier
Spirit Bonds
Harm's Way
Heliod is almost impossible to get rid of and can be vialed/caverned in. If he's in play, basically all your creatures have vigilance and you can sink your mana in pumping out threats at a slightly higher cost, but less vulnerable than a Kjeldoran Outpost.
The Cavalier has protection from a ton of removal spells, bridging the miracles/pile divide by dodging plow as well as push/lily/kolaghan. He also dodges any blocker thrown at him, be it through flying, first strike or protection, and he mana sinks for extra damage. But he still dies to bolt and -1/-1 effects. If you're not worried about miracles and other plow decks, replace this with [card]Paladin en-Vec[/card].
Spirit Bonds is an enchantment, making it tough for grixis shells to deal with. Miracles can get rid of it, but its art/ench removal effects tend to work over time against us anyway - at least if we do not cut SFM. Late game, it sort of doubles the board presence of any of the critters you play, while also protecting them from removal if they have a greater impact. It also has a cute interaction with legends and karakas.
Harm's Way is reactive like Apostle's Blessing, but it turns a removal spell into a 2-for-1, rather than a mere counter. Counter your bolt for SFM, burn your deathrite/delver/pyro/strix is the ideal set-up. But its impact is conditional within certain match-ups and only applicable in a small subset of match-ups, making it only possibly worthwhile if those match-ups take up a big enough chunk of the meta you expect.
In a hurry, but would like to chime in on your suggestions:
I've been playing Stillmoon Cavalier for as long as I've been playing a black-splash variant with Recruiters, mostly as a mirror breaker and due to its general awesomeness against anything non-red. It's a great card in the right circumstances.
Harm's Way was in my sideboard for a couple of events, but I never got to use it properly. Also, it would be _so much better_ if the redirection mechanism didn't target and could take out TNN :/
Heliod, God of the Sun feels like a worse variant of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar that dodges the Thalia tax - I'm not convinced. However, I've been eyeing Thassa, God of the Sea for the U splash variant in the past.
Spirit Bonds, otoh, is a card I did not know existed until now. Looks cute (maybe a little too cute, but I'm very open to put this to the test), but the abilities sure make sense in a deck like ours. Question is if its a better 2-mana enchantment than Honor of the Pure for us, as that's pretty much "confirmed playable".
In my local meta I have a lot of aggro creature decks, like goblins, elves, merfolk, Maverick. I like the Vryn Wingmare decks, but I would like to tweak my deck for this local meta with more CMC 2 creatures.
Anyone got a ideas for these MU's? Maybe some number of Ethersworn Canonists in the main and perhaps a THC in the main for tempo?
Last night was the perfect example of why Medea_'s article hits the nail on the head.
Played the BUG Leovold/Edric deck without maindeck Mirran Crusader and got ranched game 1. Brought it in Game 2 and beat him to death. Didn't see it game 3 and lost. Got board-wiped by Marsh Casualties 2x, with thalia + Wingmare out. Felt real bad. It is very hard to have everything we need and still run SFM, but it was SoFaI on Crusader that won me game 2, but he also had Abrupt Decay in game 3 for both of my equipment, which Batterskull would have gotten around. Also, thanks to Leovold and Edric, SotL would have been the nut.
Then played Storm and won first game because after he Cabal'd my Thalia, I top decked Wingmare, Wingmare and won, which Crusader would have done nothing about.
In other words, play a build, take your chances and hope to avoid the bad matches.
I also officially give up on Aerial Responder in Wr, but I also wouldn't want Serra Avenger in the Wr build either. Medea_'s point that Wr is essentially a more controlling build feels correct to me.
Thoughts on these:
Linvala was solid when I tested her as a 2-of, and that was before everyone splashed for Tarmo-shaman. 4 mana is a steep tradeoff though, unless you set Caverns to Angel. Shalai might be better, or even Commander Eesha. Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle is also interesting. Cast Vial/Thalia/Equipment, get a free Resurrection.
Celestial Crusader I never tested, he doesn't seem worth 4 mana, even at being naturally instant speed and uncounterable. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.
I'll be testing Marshal as soon as my 2 copies show up.
Blessing is interesting, especially for protecting equipment from removal, but... it has the same problem Harm's Way did when I tested that. Reactive answer cards suck unless they're so broad they apply in every situation. (e.g. counterspells, Decay, Vindicate, etc.) The best thing I managed to come up with testing HW was to allow Thalia to kill two opposing Hexmages in combat vs Depths.
Heliod is interesting... but Gideon, Beefstick of Zendikar has more versatility with his ultimate, comparable combat ability, and comparable survivability to removal. Oketra the True is also comparable.
Cavalier, when I tested it, was very good against anything nonred. I'd say he's a good sideboard flier, but we have more sideboard options than we have sideboard space.
Spirit Bonds... also seems interesting. But... it's a massive mana sink in a deck that already has tons of mana sinks between Ports, Stoneforge & equips, and anything else you might be running. (Displacers in my list. He's a beast.)
Stalking Leonin has been the best card I've added since I started playing the deck. Dude is no joke. Granted, it doesn't answer True-Derp, but there's a reason I nicknamed him the God-Cat. I'm also considering testing Key to the City. I have it in my Karlov EDH and it does so many things, but here I want it mainly for the unblockable, with the occasional card filtering.
Last edited by DarthVicious; 04-25-2018 at 12:07 PM.
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