Could Remorseful Cleric become a timely MD adaptation to a resurgence of GY strategies ? I find the BR Rea MU to be horrendous G1.
It shouldn't be horrendous, g1 is pretty close to 50/50, they're slightly favored in the first turn or two but you are favored if they don't nut draw kill you.Originally Posted by Gruul
G2 and 3 are favored for us.
Other winners...
RUG Delver
UR Delver?
Jeskai Delver??
Bant Stoneblade (probably Stoneblade in general)
Bant Shardless
Stifle
DRS loss certainly virtually ends the top 4c decks and "slow" Depths, but Gitaxian Probe ban also somewhat hurts ANT/TES, FTK combo, and Sneak and Show (and obviously any Young Pyro deck, aka Grixis Delver.) I'm not saying it makes them unplayable, but they lose free perfect information (whether for Cabal Therapy or simply to go off) + draw + storm count. I think that if Git Probe was minor, it would not have been banned because it isn't like Infect was a problem.
I don't know if Grixis or BUG Delver are playable, but they won't be the same. The main thing is that Legacy will have several Delver decks that play out in distinctly different ways.
Cabal Therapy becomes much, much worse.
I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)
Will Mono-Red Prison still be good? It is very hard to say. It thrived on Blood Moon being very good because of greedy mana relying on DRS. If people start playing more basics, then Moon decks get worse. If that happens, then Eldrazi Stompy may become the stompy deck of choice again and get new life.
I'm all in with Medea_ on fringe decks like Aluren, Food Chain, etc. losing out big time.
Here is what I plan to play:
2 Remorseful Cleric main for Reanimator and Lands and possible Goyf return, and not bad against Miracles.
2-3 Brightling main (very good versus Miracles and I think it will be important against TNN decks.)
Sideboard...
What happens to PtE? I think we don't run it as a 2-3 of any longer, if at all because I am not sure we can afford to give people basic lands.
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin-Relic Warder
1 Holy Light (Stoneblade, Goblins, the new mana dorks, and Elves)
1 Enlightened Tutor
Possible options:
Seal of Cleansing
Dismember
Cataclysm (depends on if stuff like Mono-Red Prison stays in because it was especially for fighting Mircles and Czech Pile)
Pithing Needle
Sword of War and Peace
Need 2 containment priests for Sneak and show.
I take back the removal of PtE. I wasn't thinking about how good it is against Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Ugh.
4 StP, 3 Karakas, 2 Remorseful Cleric seem fine for Reanimator in game 1. 2 PtE, 2 RiP, 2 Surgical, and 2 CJ after boarding will also be impactful. I think BR is a bit worse than a coin flip overall. I don't know what to think of UB: they're slower which gives us a turn or two to use our hate, but there is a shot that hate is beaten by discard and countermagic.
Either way, I don't really see room for Priest, since he's really best in our dead loser matchups (Elves and SnS), and we have better hate besides. I think I'd run Faerie Macabre first. Not a bad card, but I can't see myself playing more than one.
"I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)"
Maverick was tier 1 before DRS. Knight, Thalia, Wasteland, Ramunap Excavator all get better, and one of it's great matchups (RUG Delver) seems like it's going to be popular for a while.
Not sure who that quote is from. Maverick is almost certainly better able to execute its strategy in the absence of DRS. That said, I'm not sure how Maverick is positioned for the new changes. P. Fire isn't great versus RUG Delver, but they probably out-punch that deck anyway. If combo ticks up though, that could be a problem. Their anti-combo tools aren't typically quite as good as ours (at least not without a significant black splash).
That’s why Cavern of Souls is such a great card, uncounterable answer to their deck is awesome.
I can't imagine it's correct to play Cavern these days. Yesterday I took apart Czech Pile, dusted off the old Mongeese, Goyfs and Stifles, then immediately put together Canadian Thresh. My guess is that there were several Grixis Delver and Czech Pile players that all did the same thing. With that in mind, and this deck getting immediately better due to mana denial becoming more potent, we should be seeing a lot more Wastelands than we have in the last 5 years. This and B-ling make it feel really bad ATM imo.
I take this hurts RW Taxes, rise of wasteland hurts.
I think Bee's analysis is spot-on - but Wasteland's stock going up is very good for D&T itself. The mana denial plan will be much easier to actually follow through without the omnipresent DRS sucking mana out of both graveyards, and turning into an inevitable mini-Drain Life later on.
Depending on how much W we're gonna see in the coming weeks, I think that Epochrasite will be a card to have on your radar. It's really, really good against all the "vanilla" removal you're going to see, and a star off of Vial that can be recruited and, if need be, flickered.
I expect wasteland's stock to stay mostly the same. The loss of DRS will be compensated by manabases less susceptible to wasteland. The stock of port will go up more, because people need to get more mana value out of (basic) lands rather than mana dorks now. They can still play mana dorks, but these constrain deckbuilding much more than DRS did and they're more vulnerable to -1/-1 hate. So the stock of pontiff goes up as well - especially because true-names will become more prevalent too.
I expect a lot of W. And the decks that try something different (e.g. ru(g) delver, infect, combo, stompy) will not give a damn about Epochrasite either.Depending on how much W we're gonna see in the coming weeks, I think that Epochrasite will be a card to have on your radar. It's really, really good against all the "vanilla" removal you're going to see, and a star off of Vial that can be recruited and, if need be, flickered.
Yeah, basically this. We're down to running about half Humans at most, and our other types are generally 4-ofs at most. I don't think it's worth it to force Remorseless Cleric (or even a Brightling) in and be stuck with a colorless source that also gets balked by Wasteland, Moon, or B2B. I don't think punching through countermagic is sufficient reason for running them, especially when the decks that play the most countermagic also have very powerful answers to Cavern of Souls.
Has anyone come to a conclusion as to whether we should run 23 or 24 lands with the addition of 2 Brightling into our WW deck?
I know we are going to be more mana-hungry because of Brightling but does that mean we should *definitely* use 24 lands or 23 is also acceptable?
I've been running 24 land for quite some time and it feels perfect to me. More white sources are good, but sometimes the utility you get from Caverns/Canopy is very nice. Mine is 12 Plains, 4 Karakas, 4 Wasteland, 4 Port. Most people would say 4 Karakas is too much, but I still have 1 Mangara main, not to mention the utility it gives vs Reanimator/Sneak Show.
Prelate is relevant in nearly every matchup. I've been running 3 main since it was released. Yes, it can be Recruited for, but I'm not going to run additional 1/1's just so I can run less 2/2's. I'd rather draw a Prelate than a Recruiter most of the time.
I too am running 24. However, I'm running 61 cards, and the 24th land is a Canopy.
23 or 24 lands is fine. I'm still on 23 since I'm really concerned about threat density and think it's okay not to cast Brightling until after turn 4 when you have other stuff to do. That said, there is a solid argument for 24. Horizon Canopy is probably a fine compromise on the slot now since if you care about it, you have a lifelinker on the table.
As for Prelate, I've always kept 1 MB, and have vacillated between 0 and 1 SB. Prelate forms a hard answer to many combos and has strong utility against 3 of the most powerful control decks (Lands, Red Prison, and Miracles). That said, it also has poor matchups against tempo and board-heavy decks. For that reason, I like having a copy to recruit in game 1, but I don't really care to increase my possibility of naturally drawing it.
3 Prelates main alongside a Mangara. You my friend seem to run a most interesting build. Would you mind sharing your list? I'm interested to see how you combine hatebears/beaters density, and what your flex slots are. I'm a long-time defender of Prelate; I could not compromise not running 2 in the 75, but I've never seen/heard of 3 main.
You run your deck in a combo-heavy meta?
Certainly, sir.
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stalking Leonin
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Serra Avenger
2 Benalish Marshal
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Umezawa's Jitte
12 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Mother of Runes
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Remorseful Cleric
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Cloudchaser Kestrel
I'm considering one or two Brightling, and possibly some number of Relic-Warders, but beyond that I'm very happy with it. Recruiters can fetch Wisp, Thalia, Prelate, Crusader, Mangara, and anything off the sideboard save Gideon. More often than not, they either go for Mangara or Wisp, but sometimes Prelate is very necessary. People still fear Mangara lock like it's The Plague, and I'll be more than happy to exile their weak and unstable manabase from behind a wall of Leonins.
Most of you, I imagine, are going to bemoan the lack of spot removal, maximum Karakas, and probably even the lack of Stoneforge. Mom off the board is a little weird too, I'll admit.
The only utility land I'd consider is Horizon Canopy, the green for Shalai's activation and the card draw seem very good. I don't think Caverns are as necessary as they once were. Having extra Karakas is rarely a liability, and getting them on the table usually results in audible groans from Reanimator/Sneak Show/Depths. I don't miss Stoneforge at all, honestly, it was at its best vs something like Merfolk that couldn't beat it nor deal with it. With the impending resurgence of Thresh as 'The Delver Deck' just one of the global pump effects will be nice, turning my army of 3/3 into a force of 4/4, rendering Mongeese and True-Names mostly irrelevant on the defense. Even an opposing Jitte gets mitigated by running larger dudes. Displacer can take over the board by reusing Wisp and Leonin, generate card advantage with Recruiter, protecting Shalai from removal, tapping down potential blockers, and performs the Karakas role with Mangara. Kestrel I originally included when everyone splashing black had 2 Dread of Night in their board and it turned out to also be good against a host of other decks, notably Lands, Burn, and Sneak Show. The rest of the cards I think have either obvious applications or have been discussed multiple times already.
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