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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #10021
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    @Adan
    WR obviously hinders their mana with Magus, but it feels like Cataclysm is a pretty big winner here. Revoker + Artifact hate is valuable. It is a hard deck to be the control deck against, but it feels like they are the beatdown because of how quickly they get big.
    That guy destroyed Death & Taxes 4 times (this gottelicious in the swiss and the playoffs, Christian in the swiss and me in the finals). I don't really think Cataclysm helps a lot, but it might be worth a shot. WR has Magus, but honestly I see no reason to play WR as I don't see which matchup becomes significantly better.

    How has Palace Jailer been? See you both ran it, as did someone else.
    I like Palace Jailer. It's like playing a Jace in our deck that you can fetch up, and sometimes it randomly busts Show and Tell. It comes into play, takes away a creature and draws you a card and afterwards you have insane Flickerwisp value in a creature-based matchup. True-Name Nemesis and Strix are also on a low and I feel like Monarch backfires less often in the current meta. It also usually wins me a lot of games against Miracles.
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  2. #10022
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    Resolved twice, got a few chip shots in, then he end step plowed it, untapped, played Jace, countered it on the way back and it was GG. Even against its best matchup it really isn’t enough of a concern.
    Are you sure this isn't an elaborate "dies to doom blade" argument? If a creature gets an StP pointed at it for no value and then *still* remains a must-counter threat, isn't this a good creature?

  3. #10023

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Are you sure this isn't an elaborate "dies to doom blade" argument? If a creature gets an StP pointed at it for no value and then *still* remains a must-counter threat, isn't this a good creature?
    Right, eating a plow and a counter is still a 2 for 1. If it was any other creature it would have just eaten the plow and they'd still have a counter in hand.

  4. #10024

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    That guy destroyed Death & Taxes 4 times (this gottelicious in the swiss and the playoffs, Christian in the swiss and me in the finals). I don't really think Cataclysm helps a lot, but it might be worth a shot. WR has Magus, but honestly I see no reason to play WR as I don't see which matchup becomes significantly better.
    Time for Winter Orb again??? I used to hate out Post decks with that reasonably effectively, though it feels depressing to want to go back in that direction.

    As for what matches WR makes better, I would argue Miracles and Lands are the obvious ones, and depending on how you use Red in your sideboard, Eldrazi Post and Steel Stompy. The question to me is, what would it make worse?

  5. #10025
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Yeah, Miracles is a great matchup for WR and I think Pia/Kiran is better than Brightling there - you can tutor it (I'm effectively playing 5 copies post-board), Cavern it out, and it still has the blink ability with Karakas. Any opening hand with a Cavern and a Recruiter has a long-term plan that's very hard for Miracles to beat with anything that isn't Back to Basics or a fast Mentor. Lands/Loam/Depths are also better as are Elves and Infect and the mirror. None of these matches changes substantially in how they play out (other than Miracles probably and maybe Lands) you just have a few more tools. But yeah, I have the same question as redtwister 'Why wouldn't you splash?'. I don't never find myself punished for adding a color to the deck, I just find it winning more games than it loses. Working with an expanded tool box feels like it impacts my WR games more than 'I get to play a dozen copies of the card Plains.' does when I play Mono-W.

  6. #10026

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    But yeah, I have the same question as redtwister 'Why wouldn't you splash?'. I don't never find myself punished for adding a color to the deck, I just find it winning more games than it loses. Working with an expanded tool box feels like it impacts my WR games more than 'I get to play a dozen copies of the card Plains.' does when I play Mono-W.
    I believe the answer is Brightling/Serra Avenger. If you believe those are the way forward in this meta, then WW is pretty much what you must do.

  7. #10027

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    I asked him how Brightling was. He said irrelevant. Resolved twice, got a few chip shots in, then he end step plowed it, untapped, played Jace, countered it on the way back and it was GG.
    This kind of thing can happen to any card, sometimes they just have the answer. I remember my very first brightling play. It resolved after dread of night had made my game miserable. Was able to flicker my Cavern to Shapeshifter to play around counterspells, and already had a SoFaI on the field. Opponent plays TNN and I'm at 9 life.
    Seems pretty good, right? lifelink, draw a few cards...

    I equip sword, but in combat brightling eats an abrupt decay (not the sword). Save it, replay with cavern. Next turn, another kill spell. Save it, replay, but by then I'm dead to TNN.

    Opponent was smart enough to leave the sword and tempo'd me out. Without a vial in play, not even almighty Brightling stood a chance.

  8. #10028

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    If RW is the better way to go in Legacy, then why has WW been dominating the results on TCDecks? Is it merely that most players are conservative and haven't made the change?

  9. #10029

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I play both builds (WW and RW).

    In the DRS meta, RW was more powerfull to me. Against blue decks, Dire fleet daredevil is super strong. Against greedy manabase, Magus of the Moon meens free win. Against control decks, there is nothing better than P&K Nalaar.
    Recruiter is way better in RW build, being able to target all the pieces.

    Today, there are many more basics in the meta, less greedy manabases, less blue decks. So Magus and Direfleet Daredevil are not as strong as they used to be. On the opposite, P&K is still a superstar.
    There is also a lot of Mono Red Prison that can hurt a manabase with 5 plains or so.
    Another thing I noticed is that while splashing R, casting non-human WW spells may be much harder. Unfortunately, some of them are very important, and even stronger in this new non-flying-creature-heavy meta : Serra Avenger & Flickerwisp. And maybe Brighling (not sure about this one yet).

    So, in the end, I would say it will depend on your local meta, but in a vacuum the mono white build seems a little stronger now. But maybe it's just because I haven't tuned the RW to new meta yet. I think I will try it again with a 3 Recruiter toolbox, 2 P&K, 1 Magus, 2 Direfleet in the side along with some new toys like Harsh Mentor.
    Pox -- Miracles -- Lands -- Candelabra Enchantress -- Dragon Stompy -- Eldrazi Stompy -- Sultai Control

  10. #10030

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    @alohazendo
    Well, I think a lot of people want to try Brightling. I don't think anyone is saying it is a bad card and it can do some very powerful things in the right situation, so why not give it a serious spin?

    Magus is also worse now, so if you are going with the R splash, I think you have to do something other than Magus in the main. IMO, Magus is better out of the sideboard right now. This means that what ought to be your 75 in WR is much harder to determine than in WW, which if you take 2 Brightling as given, is close to a 58 card list with 2 flex slots.

    Also, AFAIK, WR was never as popular at WW, though it has done very well in the hands of a few people, esp Bahra and iatee, at big paper events. Therefore, with a potentially powerful new creature that favors WW as your build, WW will get an even bigger boost.

    I still feel like the third Revoker may be the best thing we could be doing right now and I think this is a very good meta for Prelate, unlike before. They are less "Bear and Ogre" than before.

  11. #10031

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Actually, there were a lot of people saying that Brightling is a bad card.

    I agree that Revoker and Prelate are exceptionally good right now.

  12. #10032

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by alohazendo View Post
    If RW is the better way to go in Legacy, then why has WW been dominating the results on TCDecks? Is it merely that most players are conservative and haven't made the change?
    I think that the main reason is that not enough pro players used any other version of the deck to make it popular, as with any other legacy deck. Most legacy deck are "set" on around 50 out of the 60 cards including the lands you might need. People don't want to invest in could-be-better splashes/diverse cards when there is a solid accomplished base that has been proven. The copy-paste-mentality has been fairly proven by the fact that with the latest ban, people barely try new stuff but instead copy older decks/versions or swap back to what has been proven before the printing of the said banned cards (hype around RUG). But that is just my 2 cents.

    Also, adding another color might change how you play the deck. I for one like to splash green/ red/ black/ colorless (eldrazi) because of this reason. But D&T is not my go-to-deck when it comes to tournaments.

  13. #10033
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    There's another creature I've kept in the back of my mind for a while now:

    Guardian of the Guildpact

    With the dramatic removal of decks running Strix, Deathrite, and KCommand, I think this guy gets a hell of a lot better. The only strike against him is his mana cost, but what you get for that 4 mana is a surprisingly tough creature to deal with. He's not great vs Eldrazi or Steel Stompy, but he walks right past TNN, Goyf, Delver, the mirror, elves, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Angler, and more while also being immune to Bolts, Push, Swords, Path, Jace, and a host of many other things. Like our own little TNN.

    He's also not recruitable outside Imperial Taxes... sadly.

  14. #10034

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Lord Darkview said:
    "Actually, there were a lot of people saying that Brightling is a bad card."

    I don't think that is quite true here. I can't speak for the Twitter or the Facebook because I don't subscribe to those services and I don't spend much time on Discord.

    Marungo said:
    "I played Brightling main this past week and it was great vs miracles and a strict downgrade to crusader everywhere else. I always wanted to spend my mana on disruption and such and was forced instead to pour it into this 3/3 to make it relevant. I have it in the board right now to board vs miracles and stoneblade. Card is great vs fair decks with plow but I haven’t loved it otherwise."

    Adan said:
    "If you pay closer attention to the report, the only matchups where Brightling really mattered are against RUG Delver, a matchup that is already very beatable without Brightling. Does Brightling improve other matchups that are otherwise bad?
    Brightling is nice against Red Prison because it is somehow still capable of attacking through Ensnaring Bridge, but is it better than Prelate on 4?

    I have the feeling that people are still more on a kind of hype train. Christian Hauck and I played the Legacy Challenge yesterday and both top8ed, he with a 6-1 record and I with 5-2 and a bit of luck and good breakers. I proceeded to finals, beating Eldrazi Stompy and SneakShow and then getting crushed by EldraziPost. And what can I say, Brightling would have never mattered."

    These are not condemnations of it, but experience-based expressions that it is not better than other things we could be doing. Now, their experience clearly differs from Medea_ or ChrisCunningham or others who have really liked it, and maybe they are wrong that it isn't as good as other things we could be doing, but they clearly aren't saying "Bad card is bad".

    I am not interested in demonizing or sanctifying Brightling, but I am interested to see approaches that offer different experiences of how the card plays out, and most importantly with any card in DnT, in this meta. If it is supposed to be really good against Miracles and a Miracles player who make Top 8 beats DnT with Brightling 3 times and drew with it once (we talked, and he made mistakes in the 4th match, he could have won but did not expect his teammates to lose both their matches) and never felt that Brightling was a factor, it is at least something to consider, as that is supposed to be one of Brightling's best spots.

    We should keep in mind that Legacy suddenly feels as wide-open as Modern, if only temporarily. That itself makes it difficult for DnT because we are at our best when we can focus on a few threats.

    @Draggo
    I will take that as a friendly amendment to my points, and I wholeheartedly agree.

  15. #10035
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    So to address the RW Taxes debate:

    I do think that the red splash loses a little bit of value because Magus of the Moon loses some value in the new metagame that is now dictated by either fast decks or decks that care less about it. It can happen that you slam Magus against RUG Delver and lock down the game with it by being able to protect it with Mother of Runes. But even then it's kind of a matter of hate, they still play Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt and Dismember that are live against Magus, so essentially Magus of the Moon is a high variance card in these matchups. Against modern Eldrazi lists like EldraziPost/BigEldrazi they can confortably get around Magus with thei acceleration like Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo and I have also seen lists with Basalt Monolith (probably as a tweak to weaken Phryrexian Revoker).
    Regular Eldrazi Stompy will have a hard time but they still run Dismember and Ballista to nail it down.

    The P&K argument and running 3 Cavern of Souls is fine, but that's not something the monoW list couldn't do by just running a 2nd Cavern and bouncing around Brimaz.
    However I do like the idea of having something like Duergar Hedge-Mage as an upgrade to Leonin Relic-Warder, or Cunning Sparkmage as a tool to beat Elves (or possibly Sudden Demise). But I don't really see a big improvement of bad matchups and no change in others (the red cards are irrelevant for SneakShow and other fast combodecks).

    To again say something about Brightling:

    I am not saying it sucks and since it costs a kidney on MTGO, it's not likely that I'm going to try this card in the near future. But, just theoretically, Brightling is a resilient threat against controldecks and basically behaves like a 3 mana Batterskull in combat-centric matchups. But again I have my doubts as the card is usually very manahungry and thus doesn't synergize very well with Rishadan Ports. Against Miracles it's usually important to lock down your opponents white mana to prevent him from casting Termini, Entreat, Teferi, Supreme Verdict and whatnot. Even though you are able to bounce him at any point, this still means that the opponent is able to create some momentum with Swords to Plowshares and then Snapcaster flashbacking StoP, even if you are attacking with Brightling.
    Brimaz requires a more specific timing for that and if he gets to attack once or twice will at least leave behind some 1/1s to keep attacking or pressuring planeswalkers.

    So Miracles has the right tools to dictate what you will be doing with your Brightling. It's at least a 4Drop when you cast it and only shines when you have your Vial @ 3.

    I can still imagine it to be a good card and if you take my list, I would easily trim one Gideon in my Sb for Brightling, play Brightling as a sideboard card and then see how the card behaves. One matchup where I clearly would like Brightling is Red Prison since they will shut down your utility lands anyway and you will be left with a lot of Mountains to play around with. It might cost 4 Mana to connect Brightling through an Ensnaring Bridge with 0 cards, but before that your only chance was to connect Jitte with a Stoneforge and then squeeze 2 damage per swing over and over again and hope that this is sufficient.
    The game I lose miserably against Red Prison usually involved at least 2 Bridges and that's where things get uncomfortable.

    But at the moment there are some tournament reports of players that played Brightling against, say, RUG Delver and were like "wow this is like a 3 mana little Batterskull by itself it's so nutz!!!" but I think this is a less significant argument given that RUG Delver is usually an okay matchup.

    It doesn't help against SneakShow, it doesn't help against Reanimator and it also doesn't help against Storm. I have seen someone pointing out that it gains some life if it sticks and connects, but against Storm you are usually dead before you can do that. And if Storm has a slow start, you need other cards like Thalia, Revoker, Sanctum Prelate, Canonist. Brightling would be the card I boarded out against these matchups without hesitation.

    It's very likely a solid and playable card, but I think on the long run won't live up to its hype. And as I said, I have a couple of leagues now (5-0, 5-0, 0-3, 3-2, 3-2, a 5-2 challenge with break-even, a 7-3 challenge top8 losing in the finals) and the only time where I wanted a Brightling was against Ensnaring Bridge. Oh yeah, and against Eldrazi I sat there with a Sanctum Prelate and thought "Brightling would definitely better than this".

    Brightling probably has some utility in the mirrormatch as well, but then again it's quite easily shut off by Revokers, turning it into a Gnarled Mass. And it won't change anything about the way the mirrormatch plays out. The dude who connects first with Jitte wins. A card that changes this dynamic is Manriki Gusari, but not Brightling.
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  16. #10036
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    In mono-white, the only Karakas targets are our own Thalias and opposing Reanimator or SnT creatures. If those decks are absent from a given meta, does mono-white have a reason to play Karakas?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  17. #10037

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    There's another creature I've kept in the back of my mind for a while now:

    Guardian of the Guildpact

    With the dramatic removal of decks running Strix, Deathrite, and KCommand, I think this guy gets a hell of a lot better. The only strike against him is his mana cost, but what you get for that 4 mana is a surprisingly tough creature to deal with. He's not great vs Eldrazi or Steel Stompy, but he walks right past TNN, Goyf, Delver, the mirror, elves, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Angler, and more while also being immune to Bolts, Push, Swords, Path, Jace, and a host of many other things. Like our own little TNN.

    He's also not recruitable outside Imperial Taxes... sadly.
    I've been looking to this guy for a while too but then I asked the question: why this one over something like Thought-Knot Seer (that can be ramped out with Temples)? So I never took the time to try it. Dodging almost all legacy removal apart from things like Terminus and Strix, I think it's a solid card. Not sure what to cut for it, main or SB.

    Getting Ports soon that makes me want to try something like:
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    7 Plains
    4 Caves of Koilos
    2 Karakas
    2 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Remorseful Cleric
    3 Flickerwisp
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Isolate
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
    Sideboard
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Manriki-Gusari
    3 Lotus Petal
    1 Disenchant
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Declaration in Stone
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Grafdigger’s Cage
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Sigiled Sword of Valeron

  18. #10038

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I am playing a Legendary version of Miracle and I was asking myself the very same question.

    If our opponent doesn’t have Leends around is It worth the slots, the weakness to Wasteland Blood Moon and everything else?

  19. #10039
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    In mono-white, the only Karakas targets are our own Thalias and opposing Reanimator or SnT creatures. If those decks are absent from a given meta, does mono-white have a reason to play Karakas?
    Dark Dephts/Marit Lage.

    Making Thalia and maybe Brimaz super resilient against Miracles.

    Hoses Thalia and Brimaz in the mirrormatch.

    Bouncing Thalia and replaying it to have it as a blocker is sometimes relevant in complicated race situations.

    Useful against random Legends like Vendilion Clique, Tasigur and Leovold sometimes.

    You can also animate Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to bash in for 5 damage, and if the opponent tries to Dismember or StoP it, you can bounce it back because it will now be a legendary creature as per the newest planeswalker update.

    So yeah. There is no reason to not play Karakas, it's just good, even though the very traditional combo with Mangara of Corondor is not played anymore (but you could).

    Also, one of my favorite things to do with Rest in Peace:

    You attack with Thalia into a large Tarmogoyf. Opponent blocks, because why not. You let first stike damage resolve and then bounce it back to save it, then slam Rest in Peace to hose the opponent and kill the Goyf in the process. WORKS. EVERY. TIME.

    And well, Show and Tell and Reanimator will always screw you over without Karakas.
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  20. #10040
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    Dark Dephts/Marit Lage.

    Making Thalia and maybe Brimaz super resilient against Miracles.

    Hoses Thalia and Brimaz in the mirrormatch.

    Bouncing Thalia and replaying it to have it as a blocker is sometimes relevant in complicated race situations.

    Useful against random Legends like Vendilion Clique, Tasigur and Leovold sometimes.

    You can also animate Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to bash in for 5 damage, and if the opponent tries to Dismember or StoP it, you can bounce it back because it will now be a legendary creature as per the newest planeswalker update.

    So yeah. There is no reason to not play Karakas, it's just good, even though the very traditional combo with Mangara of Corondor is not played anymore (but you could).

    Also, one of my favorite things to do with Rest in Peace:

    You attack with Thalia into a large Tarmogoyf. Opponent blocks, because why not. You let first stike damage resolve and then bounce it back to save it, then slam Rest in Peace to hose the opponent and kill the Goyf in the process. WORKS. EVERY. TIME.

    And well, Show and Tell and Reanimator will always screw you over without Karakas.
    Well, I'm convinced. So should I hold off on playing D&T until I get Karakases (Karakasi?) or just start getting my reps in asap?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

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