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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #10181

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Trophy is a bit weird for Legacy, albeit the card is incredibly powerful just on what it does for two mana at instant speed. However, it doesn't improve the combo match for Jund or make up for no DRS, and Junk isn't a deck. This isn't Modern where this card is going to singlehandedly return Jund to Tier 1 (wrecks Tron maindeck, kills Planeswalkers like a boss, kills every creature). It might help Jund with Lands, but I'm not sure it solves problems for decks in Legacy like it does in Modern.

    What decks does it help?

    BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner. After that...? BUG Delver? NicFit? What other BGx decks really want this?

  2. #10182
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I could see BUG good-stuff gaining an equal footing to Grixis Control.

    The new Goblin card is very good against us, maybe even worth trying in RW builds. That's a very pushed card.

  3. #10183

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    One thing I feel pretty certain of is that Turbo Depths becomes close to unplayable.
    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  4. #10184

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    Trophy is a bit weird for Legacy, albeit the card is incredibly powerful just on what it does for two mana at instant speed. However, it doesn't improve the combo match for Jund or make up for no DRS, and Junk isn't a deck. This isn't Modern where this card is going to singlehandedly return Jund to Tier 1 (wrecks Tron maindeck, kills Planeswalkers like a boss, kills every creature). It might help Jund with Lands, but I'm not sure it solves problems for decks in Legacy like it does in Modern.

    What decks does it help?

    BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner. After that...? BUG Delver? NicFit? What other BGx decks really want this?
    Elves got a lot better as a card to deal with lands and planswalkers is a big deal for them, and kill spell are generally not a great angle of attack against combo, but this one can snag an LED and non-emrakul target holding a lot more value than say fatal push. Basics arent as played in leg so this is just additional stonerains for delver decks, pretty versatile imo.

  5. #10185

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by filln View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    That's funny, I missed that. I just think, even if it hurts them, it won't see enough play outside of 1-2 decks to make them much worse, while giving them more interaction with Reanimator and Sneak and Show.

    Yeah, Elves likes it. I just keep wondering if it takes decks that were really hit by the loss of DRS and makes them viable. For example, a creature combo deck probably doesn't recover from the loss of a key creature by switching its cmc 2 removal from one card to another. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it. Give DnT a two mana instant Council's Judgment and that is a whole different animal.

    BUG certainly won't be worse for having it and it might be more viable. It's not K-Command ("merely" 2-for-1 of discard/2 damage/destroy artifact/creature buy back), but that unconditional permanent destruction for a possible basic land is pretty tight. It certainly feels more relevant in BUG Control/Good Stuff.

    I just don't see it making a big splash in Legacy, nowhere the impact it is likely to have in Modern.

  6. #10186

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    That's funny, I missed that. I just think, even if it hurts them, it won't see enough play outside of 1-2 decks to make them much worse, while giving them more interaction with Reanimator and Sneak and Show.

    Yeah, Elves likes it. I just keep wondering if it takes decks that were really hit by the loss of DRS and makes them viable. For example, a creature combo deck probably doesn't recover from the loss of a key creature by switching its cmc 2 removal from one card to another. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it. Give DnT a two mana instant Council's Judgment and that is a whole different animal.

    BUG certainly won't be worse for having it and it might be more viable. It's not K-Command ("merely" 2-for-1 of discard/2 damage/destroy artifact/creature buy back), but that unconditional permanent destruction for a possible basic land is pretty tight. It certainly feels more relevant in BUG Control/Good Stuff.

    I just don't see it making a big splash in Legacy, nowhere the impact it is likely to have in Modern.
    I think the decks that typically want Trophy are decks that fold to Jace. These are typically non-blue midrange decks. Blue decks still have Force game 1 so they don't necessarily fold to Jace. This is the hoop Trophy needs to jump through as the current metagame has few viable BGx decks. It's possible BUG makes a comeback due to Trophy, but I don't think it'll be as good as Grixis Control and it'll be a bit too slow to deal with Miracles. Maybe BUG becomes viable if they can figure out a way to play 4x Snapcaster.

    I'm hoping Trophy makes non-blue fair decks more viable, but I don't think it's the card that brings back Punishing Jund or Junk Stoneblade. The metagame is so pushed towards UBx, Miracles, and combo WotC will have to make some absurdly targeted printings to ensure more color combinations are viable in the format.

    The decks that really want this are Elves, Maverick, Aggro Loam (Decay is still pretty important, I think there'll be a split between the two), and Junk Nic Fit.

  7. #10187
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    It's fun to have a BGx discussion on a D&T thread
    BUG lists don't have problem in fitting in 3-4 snapcasters. This definetely doesn't mean troubles against Miracle.

    But I agree that
    1) maverick is probably the happier
    2) Grixis still has kolaghan
    3) deathrite loss would always be relevant, unless they print a nerfed version that is at least playable
    4) I would fear D&T even more because it could mean that BUG plays more 2cmc removals and that would mean MoR t1 becomes even more problematic. Also you can simply adjust with more Crusaders and because of this I easily see myself upping the anti-white sideboard slots (usual splits between dread of nights, toxic deluges, golgari charms and lilianas. The biggest problem remaining crusader)

  8. #10188

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    My locals are heavily Grixis Control (2-3 players) and UWx Control (3-5 players), which feels like I am going to have a sub 40% win percentage between the two. Even with Cataclysm (I am running two), it feels super tough beating these two. FWIW, I have been working to play carefully, not overextend, hold cards until I can establish a difficult situation for them and even with then, unless I start with a perfect hand, I am 3-11 in games and 1-5 in matches overall.

    Any suggestions? Anyone not having issues with these two decks?

  9. #10189

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    My locals are heavily Grixis Control (2-3 players) and UWx Control (3-5 players), which feels like I am going to have a sub 40% win percentage between the two. Even with Cataclysm (I am running two), it feels super tough beating these two. FWIW, I have been working to play carefully, not overextend, hold cards until I can establish a difficult situation for them and even with then, unless I start with a perfect hand, I am 3-11 in games and 1-5 in matches overall.

    Any suggestions? Anyone not having issues with these two decks?
    I don't think Cataclysm is that good anymore. I tried out 2 before Richmond and it was always the worst card in my board. It requires way too much setup and when your opponent is playing STP/Disenchant - Snap - STP/Disenchant or Command - Snap - Command it's difficult to ever have a creature, equipment, or Vial stick for that long. It was so bad that I lost to Cataclysm more than my opponents.

    I went back to two Gideon in place of Cataclysm. I've upped my Council's Judgment count to three, which is something I've been extremely happy with. Now, I manage to see at least one every time I bring in all three and we do bring in all three against Miracles and Grixis. I also bring in Walking Ballista since it can shoot down stupid Monastery Mentor, Strix, and planeswalkers.

    These matchups are still not that good even with the changes I made, but they don't feel as lose-able.

  10. #10190
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I'm really new to DnT, but I decided to brew anyways, because I love to do it. I think I found something that would work well for our rough matchups. Splashing black gives us Dark Confidant for grindy/value matchups, Thoughtseize against combo, and Orzhov Pontiff against Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis, and the mirror. I'm thinking 2 Confidant and 1 Pontiff main, with 2 Confidant and 4 Thoughtseize in the sideboard. While I'm loath to go low on basics, the gains are enormous. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  11. #10191
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Splashing black gives us Dark Confidant for grindy/value matchups, Thoughtseize against combo, and Orzhov Pontiff against Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis, and the mirror.
    If you skip Thoughtseize, you can do that with the (generally accepted to be slightly outdated, but I still run it to great success locally) 3 Cavern of Souls, Humans-heavy build. However, the problem with splashing is usually not what to bring in, but what to remove from your 60.

    Ad Cataclysm: It's hard to turn a profit from this card if you opponent is fully prepared. There are a few scenarios that make it easier on D&T, though - we play important lands, creatures, and artifacts (artifact creatures can be chosen for both types), and we usually don't have any Planeswalkers around. Sometimes, of course, it's the right call to just nuke everything even if you don't trade excessively (but still mildly) in your favour. If you ever find yourself casting this card (without knowing this is a desperate, last resort kind of measure to buy another turn or so) and then losing, this is a very clear indication that you probably did something wrong when executing this plan, or its setup.

    @redtwister: with the aforementioned Caverns build, Miracles is rather easy, unless your opponent is masterfully playing their deck. I recommend Mangara of Corondor as a tutorable one-of. Grixis is another matter, but there are tools available to cause them headaches. I have used Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Epochrasite to some success in the current meta; if you're desperate, you might want to look at Paladin en-Vec and Mystic Crusader.

  12. #10192

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @redtwister
    That was the whole reason I played Wr in Richmond. I was hedging vs. Miracles and Grixis. I did not play as many as I hoped, but P+K and the 3 caverns were all stars against both BUG and Miracles. Honestly I punted vs Miracles game 2 so I could’ve won 2-0 if not for my misplay and my opponents tight play. If you wanna be more grindy it’s all about must answer threats. And I personally felt the best one was P+K since we have 3 karakas. As far as mono-white I believe Gideon to be the best answer we have available.

  13. #10193
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    WR builds are pretty solid against Grixis, PK in particular. They used to always crush Miracles too, now they crush Miracles 50% of the time and lose hard to B2B the other 50%.

  14. #10194

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @marungo,iatee
    So here's a question: do we have any tools in WW that swing those matches that play well with creatures? I know Gideon is good, but I never liked the way a 4 mana non-creature feels in the deck. How badly would those decks be hurt by 3 Spirit of the labyrinth? I know they have a lot of removal, but they are super-dependent on draw and I feel like overloading on creatures, and creatures that tax their draw, could pressure them. Plus, we side them out versus certain decks.

    Anyway, definitely been thinking about WR because in a mid-range-ey, control-y meta, P+K is a beast. I do worry about Back to Basics, since it is the new hotness for UW main deck. If you have some build ideas, please share, I think, including the new Gob, WR is at least worthy of consideration.

    Thanks for the feedback.

  15. #10195

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Spirit is pretty good against miracles actually. But super medium to bad vs Grixis. Dies to everything and their deck is just a blue jund-esqe stack of removal. As far as cards go in WW, probably shalai. It’s legendary, relevant abilities, got a good body at 3/4. Issue is it dies to strix and is no “army in a tin can” that P+K is. Honestly, I don’t even mind losing to back to basics. It won’t last forever in the deck as it’s a meta call card. But that’s just me. Of course it’ll hose the RW version but if you really wanna hedge and still play RW, play some more disenchants or CJs in the board. If you want my list from the GP I’ll send it your way. Lemme know.

  16. #10196

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    Spirit is pretty good against miracles actually. But super medium to bad vs Grixis. Dies to everything and their deck is just a blue jund-esqe stack of removal. As far as cards go in WW, probably shalai. It’s legendary, relevant abilities, got a good body at 3/4. Issue is it dies to strix and is no “army in a tin can” that P+K is. Honestly, I don’t even mind losing to back to basics. It won’t last forever in the deck as it’s a meta call card. But that’s just me. Of course it’ll hose the RW version but if you really wanna hedge and still play RW, play some more disenchants or CJs in the board. If you want my list from the GP I’ll send it your way. Lemme know.
    Definitely post the list.

  17. #10197
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Speaking or Wr... Mirran Crusader curving into Aurelia, Example of Justice https://www.mtgpics.com/card?ref=grn153 would be kinda cool %) Feat. Imperial Recruiter maybe, to tutor her up. I realize it's never gonna happen, but... A man can dream!

  18. #10198

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    4 mother of runes
    4 stoneforge mystic
    4 Thalia, Guardian of thraben
    3 Flickerwisp
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Palace Jailer
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
    1 Mirran Crusader

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte

    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Marsh Flats
    3 Plains
    2 Plateau
    3 Cavern of Souls
    3 Karakas

    SB:
    3 Path to Exile
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Rest In Peace
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Council’s Judgment
    1 Recruiter of the Guard

  19. #10199
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    3 Flickerwisp
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    Is Phyrexian Revoker really so good that you would play it over the 4th Flickerwisp!?!?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  20. #10200
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Flickerwisp is the premier target for Recruiter of the Guard, which is why at least I feel like I happen to have one around when I need one, most of the time. I've been cutting the 4th Flickerwisp for ages now, and never really missed it.

    Phyrexian Revoker has other, more subtle upsides going for it, too - it lives through Dread of Night, and is cheap and also easy to cast. There's only a few matchups where it's completely irrelevant (RUG Delver comes to mind), and its back-in-the-day drawback of pumping Tarmogoyf by 2 doesn't really matter any more. I can see why someone wants to have three copies, esp. if the meta is stuffed with relevant abilities to mess with, and your manabase is less resilient than the mono W variant's.

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