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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #10221

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    With an uptick in miracles and dnt is it right to bring Brightling back to the MD?

  2. #10222
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM View Post
    With an uptick in miracles and dnt is it right to bring Brightling back to the MD?
    What about a MD Sword of War and Peace instead? Works against Miracles and DnT while also playing nice with the extra Mirran Crusaders that we play MD for UBx Shadow and Grixis Control. Also helps against Grixis Control's red removal (which increases in number post board).

    Something like this?
    4 Mom
    4 Thalia
    4 Stoneforge
    1 Revoker
    2 Recruiter
    4 Flickerwisp
    1 Prelate
    3 Mirran Crusader
    1 Jailer

    4 Vial
    4 StP
    1 Batterskull
    1 Jitte
    1 SoFaI
    1 SoWaP

    4 Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas
    13 Plains and/or Mishra's Factory
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
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  3. #10223

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by potentia View Post
    Miracles in a heart beat.
    Basically, whenever you ask yourself a question like that, start with asking yourself which deck is the midrange, 1-for-1 value-you-to-death deck and which one isn't. Because the former is essentially our worst enemy. Yes, fast combo you can just lose to, but if they stumble they can also just lose to us and their decks tends to beat them. Mid-range, esp mid-range with card advantage and counter magic, rarely trips over its own feet and loses to itself. I am tempted to say that Grixis is actually the blurred archetypal edge between 'pure' control (UW Miracles is the exemplar of that style) and 'pure' mid-range (Jund being the exemplar of that model), as it has counters, draw spells, and a low wincon count like control, but all of the hand destruction and a focus on 1-for-1 removal instead of sweepers just like classic mid-range.

    Therefore, Grixis, like 4-Color Leovold, is a better Jund, which was never a good match. And unlike decks with Brainstorm and other forms of hand management and draw, we can't hide our best cards from hand destruction or recover by drawing some more. We are very much at the mercy of whether or not they just have it. On top of that they have all of the value removal and Baleful Strix, which roadblocks all but two creatures typically in our deck.

    @Brightling
    If it wasn't so much worse than Mirran Crusader in the UB Death's Shadow and Grixis match-ups, I would say yes, but IMHO Crusader remains the best beater we have.

    I'm with Marungo that WR is actually very strong at the moment, since Cavern, lots of Humans, and Crusader + P+K is very good against all three of those decks and only UB DS is really threatening land destruction. Grind on you crazy diamond.

  4. #10224

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    There's also an argument to run Brightling as a 1-2 of in the board if you have a healthy amount of Miracles in your meta.

  5. #10225

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    That is also an option.

    It's interesting to look at the changes at MTGTop8 from 2 months to the last two weeks. UW Control has really become more popular.

  6. #10226

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I think the environment is more favorable to Brightling now than it was a few weeks ago, but there's still enough Strix and Loam decks around that I don't want to put aside my Crusaders, Prelate, or Jailer. This would mean that Brightling would be in my SB, and I feel like I'd rather run Cataclysm or Gideon as my haymaker against Miracles, since they also do a lot of work against Grixis Control. You could use it though, especially if you're also looking for help in some of the aggro matchups: the card pinch-hits very well.

    SoWaP still feels like a bit niche for the 60, and Batterskull covers enough distinct things that I prefer it. Running it in the SB right now is completely justifiable, given the amount of DnT and Miracles around.

    For the "would you rather face B2B Miracles or Grixis Control" question, I agree I'd much rather face Miracles. Both matchups are hard and Miracles is the better control deck, but I feel like I have the opportunity to potentially execute my gameplan against them and win with sharp play since their cards are highly-variable in impact. Grixis Control, on the other hand, has cards with higher average impact, and K. Command and Strix are uniquely well-suited to disabling our primary gameplan for long matchups. I feel like Miracles is like 40-60 at worst, while Grixis Control is like 35-65 at best.

  7. #10227

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Is there anyone that can verify if this is accurate? 4 jitte...

    http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123984

  8. #10228

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by mykatdied View Post
    Is there anyone that can verify if this is accurate? 4 jitte...

    http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123984

    4 Jitte and 20 Lands? No way. Typing error I guess. 23 Lands 1 Jitte seems possible.

  9. #10229
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    The open was the second large legacy tournament with no DnT in the top 32. It seems pretty clear that DnT is a terrible day 2 deck at the moment.

  10. #10230
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    The open was the second large legacy tournament with no DnT in the top 32. It seems pretty clear that DnT is a terrible day 2 deck at the moment.
    Is there a RW list hat anyone is working on? Magus of the Moon seems really good in the current meta.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  11. #10231

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    The open was the second large legacy tournament with no DnT in the top 32. It seems pretty clear that DnT is a terrible day 2 deck at the moment.
    I think real changes have to be made to address Grixis Control and Miracles. I'm experimenting with some things. This weekend I played 3x Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, which did some work. They weren't necessarily game-enders, but they were quite powerful. The issue is that both decks have answers to it, so it isn't necessarily the lights-out punch I'm looking for. It might be time to either bring back Cataclysm or to go a bit bigger.

  12. #10232

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    I think real changes have to be made to address Grixis Control and Miracles. I'm experimenting with some things. This weekend I played 3x Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, which did some work. They weren't necessarily game-enders, but they were quite powerful. The issue is that both decks have answers to it, so it isn't necessarily the lights-out punch I'm looking for. It might be time to either bring back Cataclysm or to go a bit bigger.
    I've been considering Hokori, Dust Drinker. I'm still not a fan of Cataclysm. It requires way too much setup and is already pretty inconsistent. Hokori is tutorable, a clock, doesn't get delayed by Thalia, and can be protected by Karakas. I also think Hokori is better against Eldrazi, Post decks, and Lands. On paper, Hokori looks good, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were just as clunky as Cataclysm.

  13. #10233
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    I've been considering Hokori, Dust Drinker. I'm still not a fan of Cataclysm. It requires way too much setup and is already pretty inconsistent. Hokori is tutorable, a clock, doesn't get delayed by Thalia, and can be protected by Karakas. I also think Hokori is better against Eldrazi, Post decks, and Lands. On paper, Hokori looks good, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were just as clunky as Cataclysm.
    Against Miracles I could see it doing work *if* you can get a Chalice or Prelate on 1 to stick. Grixis doesn't really need to tap out after turn 2 and this dies pretty much to everything, even if they've tapped out it's too easy to remove with just Jace bounce+Force on the way back, fetch Fatal Push etc. I'm almost thinking about giving up vs those two, taking my free wins due to mana screw/flood where I can get them and focusing on the rest of the format.

  14. #10234
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    I've been considering Hokori, Dust Drinker. I'm still not a fan of Cataclysm. It requires way too much setup and is already pretty inconsistent. Hokori is tutorable, a clock, doesn't get delayed by Thalia, and can be protected by Karakas. I also think Hokori is better against Eldrazi, Post decks, and Lands. On paper, Hokori looks good, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were just as clunky as Cataclysm.
    Wow. Go on and make Hokori work somehow. He was in my very first version of Death and Taxes back in 2006. Damn, that would be amazing. The big trick, of course, is that you get to untap while the opponent does not.
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  15. #10235

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    I've been considering Hokori, Dust Drinker. I'm still not a fan of Cataclysm. It requires way too much setup and is already pretty inconsistent. Hokori is tutorable, a clock, doesn't get delayed by Thalia, and can be protected by Karakas. I also think Hokori is better against Eldrazi, Post decks, and Lands. On paper, Hokori looks good, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were just as clunky as Cataclysm.
    I have been considering Winter Orb, as a "surprise sucker!" sort of Tax effect. Miracles is very much on the uptick around my meta, and with Vials- the tax is isn't as bad for us. I am not sure how effective it would be against Shadow decks which operate a very slim land count though.

  16. #10236

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    After a variety of conversations (thanks to Justin M and marungo, all the fault is my own), some thoughts on attacking the meta... (HINT: Wall of text incoming)

    Core list:
    Lands
    22-4

    Creatures 18
    4 TGoT
    4 Mom
    3 Flickerwisp
    2 Mirran Crusader
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    4 SfM
    WR - 1 P+K, 1 Magus

    Spells 11
    4 StP
    4 Vial
    1 FoFaI
    1 Batterskull
    1 Jitte

    Honestly, I think everything else is up for grabs including Revoker, Recruiter, Palace Jailer, and so on. And yes, possibly down to 22 lands instead of going up to 24. IMO, we have anywhere from 7-9 open slots.

    Hell, maybe the SfM package is still up for grabs, but I don't like the options we have all come up with at this point (more on that below.)

    So let's get weird (I am not promising that any of this is a good idea)

    Option 1: WR with 3 Dire Fleet Daredevil
    Generic WR Pros:
    - P+K is quite strong against Miracles and Grixis
    - Magus is good vs. Lands, Depths, Post and the like
    - Red creatures don't die to Dread of Night

    Generic WR Cons:
    - Miracles is main-decking Back to Basics, which could leave us with only 3 effective lands and if (when) they blow up our Vial, we're in trouble.
    - More susceptible to enemy Wasteland

    DFD Pros
    - obviously exiling opponent's sorceries and instants is a fine move against decks like UB death's Shadow, Grixis and Miracles, but also anything with Life from the Loam
    - First strike on a card we can have in multiples on the board, combined with Crusader and Thalia, makes for a strong ground defense
    - Casting both removal and draw keeps us from having to add removal in our sideboard and let's us think the sideboard differently
    - As the game progresses, we can cast K-Command, Reanimate, Hymn, etc., which seems strong versus our nemeses.

    DFD Cons
    - Clearly, the card is reactive and not great turn 2
    less good off of Vial
    - 3 with a P+K and Magus definitely means 2 Plateau + 3 Cavern, and I think 1 Mountain.

    Option 2: WW Judge's Familiar
    Generic WW Pros:
    - Best manabase
    - Great manabase makes for better sideboard choices because WW on spells are pretty easy
    - Laughs at B2B

    Generic WW Cons:
    - Creature card selection maindeck is a little less good at the moment because Magus and P+K are better grind cards

    JF Pros
    - 1 drop, lowering our curve, maybe allowing 22 lands
    - Flier, sexy with a Sword
    - stacks with Thalia to make playing non-creature spells in the first 2-3 turns very difficult
    - Lessens our need for anti-combo cards in the SB

    JF Cons
    - 1/1, not aggressive, not a good blocker
    - Sacking creatures to stop non-creature spells does not improve our clock
    - Only counters instants and sorceries
    - Useless if Dread of Night resolves

    Other Maindeck Madness:
    Thalia, Heretic Cathar because she slows mana development and causes creatures to enter tapped, and maybe that is good enough. Still wish it wasn't a 3 drop, but Human fits in WW or WR.

    Rest in Peace because many of the biggest threats rely fairly heavily on the graveyard. After watching the power level of Leyline of the Void against Grixis Control and knowing how powerful that is against Lands, Loam, UB DS, Reanimator, etc., maybe we go back to it as a 1-of mainboard. WW only!

    Drop Phyrexian Revoker. I don't think it is that good right now.

    Drop Stoneforge package, but I don't know what the other choices would be if we take out the SFM package. I don't like Honor of the Pure. 7 more creatures? I don't think cards like Benlish Marshal are good, though some part of me really, really wants to play Wilt-Leaf Liege to punish Hymn. Plus, don't we just lose to opposing Jitte then?

    Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants. Wait a minute... Well, it pumps creatures and it gets creatures back from the graveyard, both of which are very good at that point in the game. Maybe better maindeck than Gideon. Oh, and the emblem is stupid.

    Weird Sideboard Ideas
    WW
    Devout Lightcaster. This could be her time. Pro-black, exiles Dread of Night, Angler, Death's Shadow, all the Lilianas, Dark Confidant, Baleful Strix, Griselbrand and Marit Lage. WWW sucks, but maybe not in a WW deck.

    Cataclysm and Gideon in the sideboard. Is there really such a thing as too much hate at the moment? Especially with Miracles, Grixis and UB DS all being a bit weak to both of these spells.

    The problem here is with both, that's 6 cards vs. Grixis (Against UB, it's just +2/+2 Litecaster/Gideon -1 Prelate/-3 Familiar, and +2 Gideon, -2 StP vs Miracles.) Not sure what I would take out, and that is a problem. -2 SfM/-1 Prelate/-1 Batterskull/-2 StP?

    WR
    Since I have lost my mind and all things are possible, and since I am running 5 maindeck red creatures with 2 more in the sideboard, why not Sulfur Elemental against DnT? There is nothing else I want to do against DnT anyway and the rest of my board can be set against other matches. Or... try and make Orzhov Pontiff work. 4 Vial, 3 Cavern?? I mean, sketchy is sketchy but it hits everything.

    WW Judgy DnT
    Lands 23
    12 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port

    Creatures 25
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Judge's Familiar
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate

    Spells 12
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants or Rest in Peace

    Sideboard
    2 Cataclysm
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Devout Lightcaster
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder

    WR Pirate DnT
    Lands 24
    3 Plains
    2 Plateau
    1 Mountain
    3 Cavern of Souls
    4 Arid Mesa
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port

    Creatures 25
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Flickerwisp
    3 Dire Fleet Daredevil
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
    1 Magus of the Moon

    Spells 11
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    Last edited by redtwister; 09-25-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  17. #10237
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by mdu2boy View Post
    I have been considering Winter Orb, as a "surprise sucker!" sort of Tax effect. Miracles is very much on the uptick around my meta, and with Vials- the tax is isn't as bad for us. I am not sure how effective it would be against Shadow decks which operate a very slim land count though.

    {lowers head} I must confess that I have used Winter Orb in my tutor sideboard for ages. It is still good against Miracles and especially ramp decks like the green/blue Eldrazi decks with Cloudpost. I so want Hokori to be good. It just...isn't.
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  18. #10238

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Judge's Familiar was kind of a bust. A bit like Spirit of the Labyrinth, it feels great when you have a "Gotcha!" moment, and otherwise not great.

    Devout Lightcaster seems like the real deal with all of the B permanents running around. I had multiple games where hitting it would have been lights out for my opponent, but you have to find it and I had a bad night with Recruiter i.e., I never found one when I needed it. I like Phil's 3rd in the sideboard.

    I didn't play the WR build, but playing Miracles convinced me that the non-basic mana is a huge issue in that match. I still think it might have legs, but I only have the time to test one idea at the moment, so I am focusing on WW.

    Despite all of the removal running around, I am going to take Mangara of Corondor for a spin because of all of the permanents I want to hit.

    I still don't like Revoker overall, but the 2 drop spot is just weak if you aren't using Serra Avenger and I do not want to go over 11 CMC 3. I mean, it also gives something to take out in the games where it is bad.

    Gonna take Winter Orb for a spin.

    Part of me really wants to replace Council's Judgment with Oblivion Ring because it is easier to cast and comes in off of Show and Tell, plus Flickerwisp tricks. Maybe Abrupt Decay isn't enough of a problem right now that it is worth it?

    Revised WW List
    Lands 23
    10 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Cavern of Souls

    Creatures 25
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Mangara of Corondor
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate

    Spells 11
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Devout Lightcaster
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Palace Jailer

    Also looking for feedback, I feel like maybe I am sideboarding poorly...
    Sideboard plans:
    Miracles
    +1 Orb, +1 Prelate, +1 recruiter, +1 Jailer, +1 CJ, -2 StP, -2 Mom, -1 Revoker

    Grixis/BUG Control
    +2 DL, +1 Orb, +1 Recruiter, -3 Revoker, -1 Prelate

    Stoneblade
    +1 CJ, +1 Leonin, -1 Prelate, -1 StP

    DnT
    +1 Walking Ballista, +1 Leonin, +1 Jailer, +1 CJ, -4 Thalia

    Sneak and Show
    +1 Leonin, +1 Prelate, +1 Jailer, +2 Canonist, +1 CJ, -1 Jitte, -1 Batterskull, -2 SfM, -2 StP

    Storm
    +2 Canonist, +2 RiP, +1 ET, +1 Prelate, +1 Recruiter, -4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SfM, -1 Flickerwisp

    High Tide
    +2 Canonist, +1 Orb, +1 ET, +1 Prelate, +1 Recruiter, -4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SfM

    UB Death's Delver
    +2 DL, +1 Leonin, +1 Ballista, +1 CJ, +1 Recruiter, -3 Revoker, -1 Prelate, -2 Managara

    Lands
    +2 DL, +2 RiP, +1 Orb, +1 Jailer, +1 Prelate, +1 ET, +1 Recruiter, -3 Revoker, -2 StP, -2 Crusader, -1 SfM, -1 Jitte

    GB Depths
    +2 DL, +1 Recruiter, +1 CJ, -1 SfM, -1 Batterskull, -2 ???

    Reanimator
    +2 RiP, +1 Faerie, +1 ET, +1 Leonin, +2 DL, +1 Prelate, +1 Recruiter, -2 Crusader, -3 SfM, -1 Jitte, -1 Batterskull, -2 Flickerwisp

    MUD/Eldrazi Post
    +1 Winter Orb, +1 ET, +1 CJ, +1 Jailer, +1 Leonin, +1 Recruiter, +1 Prelate, -3 thalia, -4 Mom
    Last edited by redtwister; 09-26-2018 at 11:09 AM.

  19. #10239
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    I still don't like Revoker overall, but the 2 drop spot is just weak if you aren't using Serra Avenger and I do not want to go over 11 CMC 3. I mean, it also gives something to take out in the games where it is bad.
    I don't understand this. If a card is bad for you or your meta, play fewer, not more.

    I agree that Revoker is not great at the moment. I'm trying the 3rd Mirran Crusader in the MD instead (though I run 24 lands and you run 23, so my extra 3 drops are more viable).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  20. #10240

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    I don't understand this. If a card is bad for you or your meta, play fewer, not more.

    I agree that Revoker is not great at the moment. I'm trying the 3rd Mirran Crusader in the MD instead (though I run 24 lands and you run 23, so my extra 3 drops are more viable).
    Well, I think the issue is that it still does an unfortunately large amount of work. Lots of planeswalkers, equipment, Moms, and the like running around, I realized that last night.

    EDIT:
    Medea_ went super deep on his Twitch channel with Mangara with a whole deck essentially built around it, and also an idea I toy with from time to time with "No Search" DnT featuring Leonin Arbiter/Aven Mindcensor/Ghost Quarter.
    Last edited by redtwister; 09-26-2018 at 10:28 PM.

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