[Deck] Death and Taxes

[JakeH]

Well done regardless of the non-top 4 finish.

I like seeing the builds without Cataclysm which incorporate glowrider and more mana lock-down effects. I'm curious, are you running Trinisphere because you think it's superior to Thorn of Amethyst, or just because Thorn isn't legal yet / you don't have a playset?

Also, how has whipcorder been treating you? Have you tried out mana tithe? Same spot on the curve but drastically different cards (assuming you morph... which may not be important at all). I imagine mana tithe might be even more effective with how many 'taxing' effects you're already running. I play a cataclysm build, but I really like hearing about this one. Not really sure which is better.

Again, nice job.

I prefer Trinisphere over Thorn because it affects the casting cost of creatures. Trinisphere wrecks threshold and many other fast decks. Also, if everything costs at least three, you can control how many spells your opponent can play by counting their lands. For example, there is no point in keeping a port and another land untapped if your opponent has 4 lands in play. He will still only be able to play one spell.

As for cataclysm, i will probably be running it in the sideboard next time. Enchantress is a very, very bad matchup.

As for mana tithe, I don't have any . I just ran whipcorder because he is a good source of creature control. When you activate him during their turn and again during your turn, it usually means you are swinging for at least 5 and quite often 7 or more.

Although the deck has many cool combos and control elements, it is still in essence a white weenie deck. You can go aggro on someone at will.

[Finn]

Thought you would like to know that the local dealer finally stocked up on Karakas, and he sold all of them. Despite my absence (and my attention being elsewhere anyway), this deck seems to be having a run. Yay.

[Bane of the Living]

Whats really exciting is the idea of Florida having a metagame! It feels like its really NY, VA, and MA going big in the US right now.

[kabal]

Whats really exciting is the idea of Florida having a metagame! It feels like its really NY, VA, and MA going big in the US right now.

Untrue, GA has weekly Legacy tournaments.

[Tacosnape]

What's the difficulty of this deck to pilot compared to most of the other decks in the format?

I'm moderately unfamiliar with it, and a teammate of mine is contemplating building it due to Cataclysm being ungodly in our metagame (3+ Black/Green based control, Enchantress, Goblins, etc.) However, said teammate is concerned about the difficulty level of the deck.

[TeenieBopper]

Has he ever played any aggro deck with any modicum of success? In any format?

Seriously, it's just play dudes and swing. Don't walk into wrath of god. Learn how to bait mass removal. Unless people start packing Gloom, it's not like you have to worry about hate.

[Nihil Credo]

It's not quite as easy as TB says - D&T is certainly more tricky than, say, Goyf Sligh - but it's still a pretty easy deck to play. Just learn all the stack tricks you can pull off. In the aggro/aggro-control matchup, prepare to switch roles constantly depending on what you draw.

[Iranon]

It's not a deck that's you need to know inside and out, but it is quite flexibile and your ideal strategy can change a half dozen times in a game. It needs the right attitude rather than skills, although practice obviously helps.

[JakeH]

It's not a deck that's you need to know inside and out, but it is quite flexibile and your ideal strategy can change a half dozen times in a game. It needs the right attitude rather than skills, although practice obviously helps.

I completely agree. Its gameplan flexibility is what makes the deck so appealing to me. I like the variety of opening hands that you come across - sometimes you have a mangara and some bounce, sometimes you have a vial and an avenger, and sometimes you have 2 lands + jitte + creatures!! Bottomline = D&T is a really fun deck to play.

[Buster]

G'day,
i've been reading this thread, and have a copy of D & T myself, was playing a white splash blue before lorwyn and since have added green, here's my list:

4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
7 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest

Creatures
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker
3 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg

Spells
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm

Sideboard
1 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Abolish
3 Absolute Law
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tivadar of Thorn

Havn'e really wanted to put tarmogoyfs into the deck as don't want to have too many green cards as i would need to up the savannahs which means wasteland becomes better v this deck.
Cataclysm i think is a must have won so many games with it, and it with SotPC is the only way i think to beat the 43 land deck.

The addition of trinisphere over thorn i can understand but you would need to always hit a vial to not stuff yourself up, i think, and with it in the deck looks like the deck would be better going angel stompy as can play ancient tomb and CoT.

Has anyone else tested blue and green in D & T? as would be interested to see what they have come up with.

[godryk]

I think that both splashs are too redundant, because Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are very simillar, although Gaddock Teeg improves the control matchup. If you are still interested in both splashes I will reconsider your manabase and, specially, the single island. If you are only maindecling 3 blue cards you can just fetch for the Tundra whenever you need it. Anyway you can always include some Flooded Strands.

However, I will consider going just white/green, Meddling Mage is not a very much relevant threat as it used to be. And... yes... i have to say it... Tarmogoyf would be awesome, and doesn't damage your manabase very much, you can play a set of Windswept Heath and a single Forest and Wasteland shouldn't really be an issue.

[Barook]

I agree with godryk - the blue splash seems redundant with Gaddock and that single Island without any possibility to fetch it is just plain bad.

Just asking: How is Gaddock working along with Cataclysm?

Another question: If Tarmogoyf enters the deck, is it worth playing Mana Tithe? It has potential to send lots of different card types to the yard.

[Don Tamac]

I'm going to a local tournament next weekend, and I've tried to get all cards for the build in first page primer.

But...

Just couldn't get them all. Would like to hear your oppinion on replacement cards. I currently lack 1 Aether Vial, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Jitte, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Karakas.

I'm thinking about Sword of Fire and Ice instead of Jitte and Aether Vial, and perhaps Armageddon instead of Cataclysm. Have no ideas what to include instead of Serra Avenger or Karakas,and I don't know if my thought on the other replacements actually are worth anything. Of course, it is also a matter of cards I have and/or can get a hold of until next saturday...

Suggestions, other ideas and inputs are most welcome!

[ClearSkies]

Just asking: How is Gaddock working along with Cataclysm?

If you didn't know, you can always just bounce him at the end of the turn with Karakas.

It would seem like Aether Vial is not the card you want to cut since majority of the creatures is around 2 casting cost. Also, it allows a lot of neat tricks.

[Finn]

I am sorry that I have been neglecting this thread. Guys, with Goblins on the decline, I would certainly play the Wu version. I have this one built here:

White
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm

Blue
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Artifact
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Land
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island

sb:
4 Daze
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stifle

Generally speaking, it is alot better against combo, and a little weaker against aggro. Pure control is on the rise in a big way, and this version is a bit harder to pin down for them.

@Don Tamac, you can sub in Hokori, Dust Drinker for Cataclysm (or Armageddon in a pinch, I suppose). The Hokori lock is very hard for Control to work around.

@Tarmogoyf, there is a discussion a couple of pages back on him. I think we agreed that he is not worth the effort, though I would love to hear experiences that speak otherwise.

@Mana Tithe, it is OK if you don't have blue. But Daze is really entirely better.

[Versus]

Im very interested in trying this out. I'd like to stay mono-white though for budget reasons.

Not to be too imposing, but could someone maybe point out some of the "tricks" that can used here?

I think I understand the basics; Karakas can return a Legend with damage on the stack, anything targeted with removal can be bounced with Karakas (if Legendary) or Stonecloaker, ect.

I'm assuming that not only can Flagstones be bounced in case of LD, but you could also play a second Flagstones, then before they both go to the Yard bounce one of them back to your hand?

Same with Jitte? If your opponent controls one, you could play yours, then in responce to the Legendary rule triggering bounce yours back and replay it?

You could use Mangara's ability to remove himself and say an opposing Goyf from the game then in responce bounce him back to your hand and the opponents Goyf would still be RFG'd?

Can Karakas bounce itself?

I understand it's not simply knowing what to do, but when to do it. I will play test thoroughly, I just want to make sure there aren't even flashier tricks that have completely gone over my head.

[Jak]

Karakas oracle text says legendary creature, so all those Jitte and Flagstone tricks do not work. All the other stuff that involves creatures is a yes.

[94teen]

The second problem with those is that you can't respond to state based effects (ie: legend rule). So you can't bounce legendary permanents in response to them dying from the legend rule.

[Jourdelune]

// Lands
6 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Glowrider
3 Eternal Witness
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker

// Spells
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Cataclysm
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Eladamri's Call

// Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Aura of Silence
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of Lifeforce

I played a bit with that green splash.

The Eternal Witness are hard to play with 8 mana source. The wasteland are there for recur with Witness... the Flagstone for Cataclysm.. With Cataclysme I need a lot of land, so 8 fetch is not appropriate. Any suggestion to help my manabase?

The Aether Vial complete the Witness without 2G with some success. Glowrider is too nice to don't put the witness with all the recur I can take. Perhpaps, I would need another bounce effect to maximise Glowrider and Witness come into play effect... and synergise with Hokori (even if Karakas is too good here).

The 2 Tutor, permit to reduce mangara numbers. But less synergy with Aether Vial. I wish to find a creature tutor in green with 3CC or less :).

Mirri'S Guilde serve well. Not pitthing able. Give the choice in control matchup on card needs. A 1 drop help. Synergy with Cataclysme to protect one of my enchantment.

My powder keg are for moongoose annoyance. But I think I will put E. Explosives to destroy annoying enchantment has well. Mirri's with a 2 of and functionality are nice but againts lighting rift or any enchantment 2 or less, it could be better. Powder Keg can be use at 0, 1 or 2 in that deck without much prob.

Without the Vial, my 3 mana are slow, but I play rarely without one. And witness recur them has well.

Leyline of Lifeforce is incredible against any Force of will or counterspell. That break the control game. They need to sb in g3 and they cant do it a lot of time. When I sb Lifeforce, i exchange with vials... i fear pitthing needle. So, in g3 I can put back them if I dont see the needle.

(even without Vial, Death and Taxes work :) )

I played a UGwr threshold MU, I had keep off his red land with mangara and wasteland. It was nice to control the game. But I loose g3 by a bit.


I got a nice matchup with a AstralSlide/Lightning Rift deck. First game I was own by humility. I manage to let him draw all his library. RFG dragon with Swords. No luck on humility. I attacked with my 1/1 and Jitte. Got jitte destroyed... with akromas vengence... reset... But I got a cataclysm... 2 rift are going in graveyard and all his mana. So with the two cataclysm, nicely timed, he can't had enough mana to rift me to death... and I won because no more cards could be drawn.

(in tourney does this is good to do? I know I cant put out humility with mangara... so i know he will mill himself out... and win. but took 45 min... how it does if the maximum round time is 1 hour? Perhaps I should have concede and go in g2 for my enchantment removal.)

G2 with 2 x disentchant and 1 x Aura of silence (-2 mirri'S guile, -1 eladamri call) and Cataclysme, I got the upper hand.. stonecloack 3 dragon. Time a cataclysme on his lands at 7 lands. Serra Avenger + Jitte + a Savanha.... I kill him in 3 turn after cataclysme.

It was fun game. I really love to play D+T.

Does a Aether Vial can be timed at the layer 6b in putting creature in game that would not be affected by humility like activated enchantement, artifact or land creature?

I got a goblin match. 2-0 No need to explain it .


Someone got some nice idea to complete a green splash?

Jourdelune

[Versus]

Karakas oracle text says legendary creature, so all those Jitte and Flagstone tricks do not work. All the other stuff that involves creatures is a yes.

Oh, Oracle text FTL it would seem. I guess it wouldn't matter anyway as 94teen pointed out. Oh well, the deck seems to do fine without that aspect. The reason I assumed that was possible was because of this:

a. completely neutered an opposing Jitte by replacing one with the other before damage indefinitely

Now that I reread it I realize that isn't what he's saying. I still don't know what exactly he is saying though.