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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9941
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

    Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

    But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.
    It seems like you're missing a bit of context, so allow me to help:

    1.) It's being run as a 2-of by those who have them. No one has suggested more than 3 in the 75, and even then, only as a hedge against discard.
    2.) The slots Brightling is taking up were formerly occupied by the flex slot beaters, such as Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader. No one is cutting disruptive elements to play this card as far as I can tell, and most aren't even suggesting the wholesale removal of Crusader.

    Everyone else in the thread understands those two points, and has been discussing them in that context. You can say that other cards may be better in those slots, but to go on a screed about "herp derp attack" creatures is - to put it kindly - irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  2. #9942

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled View Post
    I know it's kinda your thing to hype cards to create content, but let's be realistic here. The card was made available last week and the online price started out around $6 from what I can see before being bought out repeatedly. That means plenty of people have copies from that initial weekend and given how the card is basically ONLY appealing to DnT, I expect most of them found their way into the wild before the spikes drove the card over $30. I personally know people who bought the card online to try it last week.

    Second, "insane" is a stretch. Could the card be good? Sure. Is it a strong contender for the "beater" slot, sure. Is it better than Crusader? Maybe. But at the end of the day it's just a dorky card that attacks and blocks. Especially in a field that looks to be heavier on combo then ever, 3 drops that do nothing to disrupt the opponent and only provide a clock can't be considered "insane." This deck would not exist if all the cards were Brightlings. The deck thrives on disruptive elements that also beat down, and if all you're looking for is beatdowns there's plenty of roughly equivalent options. I'll even go so far as to say that Remorseful Cleric will have more of an impact long-term than this card just because it DOES something in the matchups that aren't all "herp derp attack with my dudes."

    But hey, all I can say is at the shop I'll be happy to sell people Brightlings for $17 apiece until they tank.
    The card was never available online for less than about $24. There was very limited supply initially, and vendors adjusted their buys up rapidly, and the card started showing up in very limited quantities. Paper Brightling was bought out, but online Brightlings didnít show up for a good bit to start the weekend (possibly due to a rumored chest bug, but I havenít seen official confirmation of that). See price history here: https://www.goatbots.com/card/brightling

    Itís a beater that has lifelink and hates all forms of removal. In other words, it races just about any commonly played fair threat in Legacy, and generates card advantage. A card relevant in both tempo and grind oriented matchups. D&T has never had access to a card like this. If the last challenge is any indication, we arenít in for a heavy combo field. When decks like 4 Color Loam, D&T, and RUG Delver are the most represented decks, cards like Brightling are great.

  3. #9943

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    I disagree with literally everything said here. SNS isnít that bad. Literally got done a 30 game play test session vs Omni sneak and went roughly 50/50. Also brightling ďa stapleĒ is just wrong. Flat out. No creature that can only attack and block should ever be a staple in our deck. You wanna say the card is a good hoser vs fair decks? Cool. Great tech vs miracles? Sure. A staple that all list shall adapt? No. You canít even tutor for the card.
    If you donít want to buy what other competent pilots say about a matchup, fine, thatís your choice.

    Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger have been D&T staples for years. If you want to claim that theyíre not, thereís really no point in anyone having a conversation with you if you canít accept facts as facts.

    Brightling is a very good card that does things that D&T has never had access to.

    Miracles and RUG Delver pilots are talking about how they can beat the card out of Death and Taxes. Pilots of some other decks are more concerned about this card than anything else in our deck! A card thatís good against two of what figures to be the most popular decks going forward is something people should be paying attention to.

  4. #9944
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Has anyone of you considered Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric as SB options versus Sneak & Show? Seems like they could be worthwhile in other matchups as well. Eidolon + Mother of Runes seems nasty.

  5. #9945
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I played 5-2 in the MTGO Legacy Challenge, I lost to Storm and RUG Delver. Brightling was 45 Tix before the Challenge, so I did not buy it and went with my stock list.

    So far I have yet to be beaten by Sneak & Show on MTGO, I played it 4 times now and always won. From what I observed the SneakShow lists cut Omniscience again and thus the classic Revoker-Karakas is usually a hard lock still.
    Other cards that help tremendously in this matchup are Palace Jailer and Sanctum Prelate. The postboard games can be tricky, but Mother of Runes and Sanctum Prelate go up in value because Mother protects some pieces from Pyroclasm and Abrade, Sanctum Prelate on 3 shuts down Show and Tell and also Blood Moon so Karakas stays live. If you are losing a lot against Sneak Show I am convinced you just play the matchup wrongly. But I am also still running 3 Revoker, it makes sense that this matchup starts to get shaky when you're only on two.

    I think Brightling is overhyped at the moment. Brightling "winning games left and right" is something I haven't seen yet. It will take a while before the sample size is generated on MTGO, because Brightling is still expensive as hell. But so far I fail to see what makes him better than Brimaz in certain matchups. Brimaz is also a potent attacker/blocker that doesn't drop dead to Lightning Bolt and bounces with Karakas. Brightling is similar but doesn't require you to have Karakas to bounce.

    The only significant difference I can see with Brightling is that he's probably best against Red Prison. It seems like Ensnaring Bridge is now a real card in Legacy, and Brightling allows you to attack into it if you can sink some mana into him (which you usually can because you'll have a lot of Mountains against Red Prison). But then again you are spending 3 mana to ping your opponent. Seems a bit meh. Plus, he's shut down by Sorcerous Spyglass or Revoker in a pinch.

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Has anyone of you considered Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric as SB options versus Sneak & Show? Seems like they could be worthwhile in other matchups as well. Eidolon + Mother of Runes seems nasty.
    Why should you? There's Ethersworn Canonist. And they only make sense when you're facing Omniscience.
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  6. #9946
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Of course you shouldn't, but a short malfunction of my brain caused me to forget Ethersworn Canonist's very existence %-)

  7. #9947

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Moctzal View Post
    If you donít want to buy what other competent pilots say about a matchup, fine, thatís your choice.

    Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger have been D&T staples for years. If you want to claim that theyíre not, thereís really no point in anyone having a conversation with you if you canít accept facts as facts.

    Brightling is a very good card that does things that D&T has never had access to.

    Miracles and RUG Delver pilots are talking about how they can beat the card out of Death and Taxes. Pilots of some other decks are more concerned about this card than anything else in our deck! A card thatís good against two of what figures to be the most popular decks going forward is something people should be paying attention to.
    1) I will sooner trust my own experiences and thoughts on the matchup as well as the opinions of those around me who I respect above all in terms of magic before any ďcompetent pilotĒ
    2) those cards are obviously not staples. The sheer fact that RW Dnt exists proves they arenít. Cause that deck doesnít play those cards... hence not a staple of a dnt strategy. Also you only have to go back to the era of dig through time to see the disappearance of Mirran crusader in favor of wingmare. Something you never do to a staple of a deck. A beater is not a staple in this deck. And acting like it is shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to what this deck is all about.
    3) yes. Itís good. Itís an option. So is palace jailer. So is mirran crusader. So is Serra avenger. Donít assert this card that has had literally a month of time spottily showing up in decklists and being a point of deckbuilding contention in the ďcommunityĒ as this godsend staple. Itís a manasink in a deck that didnít want one and a card that requires you to cut utility lands. Card is good. I own them. But it has drawbacks.
    4) Good fair card is good vs good fair decks. I said in the past if you expect a field of Miracles (which many of you do and I donít) play brightling. It is great in that matchup and totally worth a slot in the deck. But Crusader is just as good if not outright better against RUG Delver. Blocks Mongoose and goyf. I guess I get hosed by their miser true name but thereís countless other ways to deal with that issue. Also people are also concerned about Revoker more than any other card in our deck! Also BUG players are more concerned about Mirran Crusader than any other card in our deck! There are a lot of cards DNT can play that people are really scared of depending on the deck they are playing. Sanctum Prelate is good from a combo players perspective and some people arenít even playing that guy for some reason. Point being: weíve had one event and we donít even know how the format will really shake out. I look at this event and see a combo mirror in the finals and figure people will realize they have a green light to play their degenerate combo decks again. How we interpret this information may be different. Totally fine. But how we build our decks from here is not clear, and the sheer fact that the ďcommunityĒ is so divided on brightling shows that this idea that itís a staple and we all are throwing two in our deck is just a false one.

  8. #9948
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Brimaz is also a potent attacker/blocker that doesn't drop dead to Lightning Bolt and bounces with Karakas. Brightling is similar but doesn't require you to have Karakas to bounce.
    Being a legend is not that good since the opponent can bounce it with their own Karakas. You have full control over Brightling without requiring a specific land (you need a land though). I believe the other key ability on Brightling is Lifelink.

    That being said, I don't know whether Brightling is as good as some pretend, but I'll play it over Brimaz everyday. So far it's a good tool in the same range as Crusader and Avenger. I've cut Avengers for Brightling, but I've kept my beloved Crusader.

  9. #9949
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I agree with you, Marungo. I think there is a degree of miscommunication going on and I thank you for taking this stance. It is necessary. Frankly, it is increasingly difficult for a card to be a "staple" of this deck. That is a very good thing. It means we are getting better cards. Mother of Runes does not fight for its spot, but Mirran Crusader certainly does due to meta changes. They are not of the same inclusion category, and I believe that this is Marungo's point. Frankly, I think Shalai is at least as good as Brightling. But it is harder to include because we have to carve out a spot for it while Brightling simply slides into the aggro slot. I doubt there will be a consensus as to the "best" 60, and again, that is a good thing.

    0ne thing I want to dink around with is Militia Bugler. If you pack four of those, they are beefy enough that you can keep a variety of little creatures, so that you can actually fit one or two of more stuff. It would make for a deck that can better handle a highly varied metagame. In that example, many of the cards that are not staples would fit.

    We are in the business of studying the metagame as much as pilots of any deck ever has been. We can certainly make edits to our ideas of the best cards versus which opponents. If we keep our minds on the trends and talk about them, we should be able to keep the lurkers in the know. It's a good goal.

    I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?
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  10. #9950

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?
    I had previously written out a spreadsheet with the dominant decks, their metagame share, and how each DnT card performed in each matchup on a 0-3 scale, with a weighted average at the end to select the "best" DnT cards in the metagame. I had looked at how to convert it from a personal chart to a community poll, but it was complicated, I got busy, and then we got a bunch of new cards and the entire meta was thrown into the air, so I basically gave it up.

    If people think it's relevant, I can restart this project when the meta stabilizes in a few weeks.

    As for Brightling, I think it's a staple, but I don't define staple as a "this is automatic in at least X quantity" as much as "this is one of the most common inclusions and can perform well depending on your meta and playstyle." Brightling is no Thalia, but it's not Jotun Grunt either. It deserves serious consideration.

  11. #9951

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I agree with you, Marungo. I think there is a degree of miscommunication going on and I thank you for taking this stance. It is necessary. Frankly, it is increasingly difficult for a card to be a "staple" of this deck. That is a very good thing. It means we are getting better cards. Mother of Runes does not fight for its spot, but Mirran Crusader certainly does due to meta changes. They are not of the same inclusion category, and I believe that this is Marungo's point. Frankly, I think Shalai is at least as good as Brightling. But it is harder to include because we have to carve out a spot for it while Brightling simply slides into the aggro slot. I doubt there will be a consensus as to the "best" 60, and again, that is a good thing.

    0ne thing I want to dink around with is Militia Bugler. If you pack four of those, they are beefy enough that you can keep a variety of little creatures, so that you can actually fit one or two of more stuff. It would make for a deck that can better handle a highly varied metagame. In that example, many of the cards that are not staples would fit.

    We are in the business of studying the metagame as much as pilots of any deck ever has been. We can certainly make edits to our ideas of the best cards versus which opponents. If we keep our minds on the trends and talk about them, we should be able to keep the lurkers in the know. It's a good goal.

    I wonder if a new kind of database is in order. It would be one that makes recommendations for which cards to select versus which opponents. Opinions?
    I think Militia Burgler would be better suited in Soldier Stompy.

    I can see a page like that being useful for Thraben U. I can work on something after Latin Academy is done.

  12. #9952

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    I can see a page like that being useful for Thraben U. I can work on something after Latin Academy is done.
    The following is my scoring sheet that I used prior to the banning. Even though the scores are probably not as helpful now, it may be a useful template for any similar scoring project.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Mwg/edit#gid=0

  13. #9953
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I really liked and appreciated that approach of yours, btw - both the methodology, and the execution. Kudos! :)

  14. #9954

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    The following is my scoring sheet that I used prior to the banning. Even though the scores are probably not as helpful now, it may be a useful template for any similar scoring project.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Mwg/edit#gid=0
    Lurker here. Had to register and chime in that this post is awesome. As a new DnT player, just seeing the data spread out helps me think about card choices, even if the data is a little out of date.

  15. #9955
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I was lucky enough to get my Brightlings in paper before the spike, but has anyone had any luck getting them online? They appear to be bought out everywhere.

  16. #9956

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeaux View Post
    I was lucky enough to get my Brightlings in paper before the spike, but has anyone had any luck getting them online? They appear to be bought out everywhere.
    Eh?

  17. #9957

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    To those of you testing WW D&T against Miracles. How has it been?

    I played most Legacy side events at GP S„o Paulo (main event: Modern) last weekend and found this variety of decks:

    Many: D&T; Stoneblade variants (UW, UWr mostly); UR Delver; RUG Delver; Eldrazi.
    Some: Dredge; ANT; Lands; Mono Red Prision; Goblins; Miracles; Reanimator; Omnitell.
    Few: Maverick; Aggro Loam; Tin Fins; Soldier Stompy; Steel Stompy.

    Overall I went 7-3-4. With Medea_'s list for MB (except 2 Serra Avengers instead of 2 Remorseful Clerics) and my SB was slightly different.

    Brightling was very good against UR Delver, Stoneblade and Red Prision but I don't think I would up it to more than 2 copies MB.

  18. #9958

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Is anyone running into more goblins? I'm thinking about a big Thalia (or main in place of second Mirran Crusader) in the board to help against Warchief/Chieftain draws against goblins, and it's splash damage against Sneak Attack, Bizarro Stormy and co.

    Btw, I'm playing 2 Remorseful Cleric main. Anyone else using it differently right now?

  19. #9959
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Ditto. Son's heavily testing online (I'm just procurement) and basically says 4 brightlings won't be his direction no more. 3 flickers MB while mirrans are all fully flex to squeeze a combination of (currently) 2 remourseful clerics, 2 brightlings, 1 shalai in the MB. We're preparing for a local win-a-duel event (I'm a sneak and show player myself). So far he's still unsatisfied: most of the biggest win cons are mana-denial based and not so much these 3 deliberations.

    (He's faced only 3 out of 21 blue decks (BUG, Grixis, ANT) in Seattle legacy with a RW build so has this fresh in his memory what the meta looks like without Grixis)

  20. #9960

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I think that's right on the money. 2-3 Brightling in the 75 seems to be optimal, and I think it's actually closer to 2. Doubles aren't really handy, unless one actually dies somehow. I'm messing around with other options in the third slot, including going back to a second Crusader, a Brimaz, or a Thalia HC.

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