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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #5101

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I agree and understand that. I'm willing to give it a swing though. It's also not great with Canonist, but I don't think they belong in at the same time, so...

    I think the key is knowing when you want Flamespeaker in. You basically want to lock them up and if they can get out of the prison with removal, then you go all in with Flamespeaker and start to out-CA them, at which point even a couple of turns of value puts you far ahead, with or without locking up their mana, assuming they are not a deck soft to Magus and just getting blown out by Magus + Flamespeaker.

  2. #5102

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Some discussion of Flamespeaker in Dragon Stompy in case anyone's interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Stompy/page93

    Edit: P.S. you can play lands exiled with Flamespeaker.
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  3. #5103
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by hill_giant View Post
    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-09-28

    Dig through time is gone. With omni down, I'm feeling much better about imperial taxes.
    Me too

    I also think I can cut sharpshooter, at least from the main.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  4. #5104
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Me too

    I also think I can cut sharpshooter, at least from the main.
    As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.

    I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.

  5. #5105
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedbump View Post
    As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.

    I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.
    Yeah that's what I was thinking :)

    It's still a fine sb card against Infect, Mentor and as you said Elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  6. #5106

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Now that DTT is banned and Omnitell will be tier 2, does anybody have any thoughts about how many Wingmares Mono W should be playing? 4 still seems clunky, especially if it means dropping Crusaders. BUG should be coming back with a vengeance.

  7. #5107

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedbump View Post
    As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.

    I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.
    Why do you think there will be less young pyromancers running around. Grixis delver with young Pyro only ran like 2 dtt and it still seems like a fine choice.

  8. #5108
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    i know there's a lot of dis-synergy with black vise once thalia and wingmare are on the table, but do you think it might warrant some testing with them?

    4 wasteland, 4 port, 8 thalia deck, flickerwisp....and magus of the moon after sb if you're on the r/w list.

    might be terrible, but it also could have its merits vs some matchups, unless if the deck is already a favorite in those same matchups.
    -rob

  9. #5109
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by BearsandSquires View Post
    Why do you think there will be less young pyromancers running around. Grixis delver with young Pyro only ran like 2 dtt and it still seems like a fine choice.
    Mainly a meta call, as both myself and steve play in the same league in Melbourne. I think less people will end up playing Grixis Delver without Dig Through Time for that, and the local meta outside of that 75-proxy league is much more clustered around Miracles/OmniTell(probably reverting to S&S)/RUG Delver/D&T.

    I think the deck is still playable, just lost a lot of its luster from the Dig Through Time banning.

  10. #5110

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    New Meta
    DnT (esp. Wr and WW) go back to being Tier 1 since the immense smoothing U decks got out of Dig Through Time is now gone.

    Vryn Wingmare get's a lot worse now because -x/-x effects from other fair decks will become more common and decks like Elves that aren't hurt it. WW will go back to more traditional builds like this (obviously, room for variety):
    Lands (23):
    10 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy

    Creatures (26):
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Serra Avenger
    2 Mirran Crusader
    1 Aven Mindcensor
    1 Mangara of Corondor

    Spells (11):
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard (15):
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Ethersworn Cannonist
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Council's Judgment
    2 Cataclysm
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Absolute Law
    1 Sword of War and Peace

    Another problem will be surviving the increase in Jund and other Punishing Fire decks as well. Absolute Law is fine against Burn and Goblins and even Lands, but it isn't really reliable against Jund. I don't know if anything is, actually. If Burn isn't a thing, maybe SoWaP is there instead of Absolute Law.

    Prophetic Taxes
    I tested a Wr Taxes using Prophetic Flamespeaker and I can say that the only time I actually saw it, it was outrageous. Now, is it as good as Imperial Recruiter? Not likely, at least based on the way Bahra uses Recruiter. It was also not easy to cast. 1RR can be a serious problem if you don't have Vial. However, stick a Jitte on it and you have CA and tons of triggers. It was excellent in the mirror because 1/3 double strike matches up very well against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

    I still like Bahra's Imperial Taxes builds, but here's what I would change now (I might be outright wrong on the mana base):
    Lands (23):
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Plains
    3 Plateau
    3 Karakas
    1 Cavern of Souls

    Creatures (26):
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Magus of the Moon
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Imperial Recruiter

    Spells (11):
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard (15):
    3 Rest in Peace
    3 Ethersworn Cannonist
    3 Sudden Demise
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Sword of War and Peace

    Sword of War and Peace is tech a number of people have been running, and having a second pro-red Sword seems better against Jund than Absolute Law because it presents a clock they have to answer, and against Jund I'd rather use RiP to keep punishing their graveyard dependency. The lifegain is also relevant against Burn and pro-W is great against the mirror.

    Cataclysm is something I am using locally as a catch-all against Lands, Merfolk, Miracles, but in Wr, I am not sure it is that good or necessary, thanks to Magus of the Moon. I might want another Pithing Needle or an Enlightened Tutor or something like Path to Exile or New Meta
    DnT (esp. Wr and WW) go back to being Tier 1 since the immense smoothing U decks got out of Dig Through Time is now gone.
    Last edited by redtwister; 09-30-2015 at 04:06 PM.

  11. #5111
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I think the meta will have even more Gurmag Anglers and such. We just get to find out what the 3rd best delve card is now.
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  12. #5112
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I think the meta will have even more Gurmag Anglers and such. We just get to find out what the 3rd best delve card is now.
    My guess is that it is Tasigur/Angler/Tombstalker.

    Which makes me realize how sad I am again that they couldn't just make a damn Delve Naturalize, but that is for another format altogether.
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  13. #5113
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    While they're close substitutes in modern, the difference between tasigur and angler in legacy is pretty huge thanks to karakas.

  14. #5114

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I kinda want to find some room for celestial purge in the board. It hits all those delve cards along with sneak attack, Lilli, young pyro, and even dread of night

  15. #5115
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I do not think new metagame is bad for Vryn Wingmare and I do not consider -X/-X effects enough reason to not playing Vryn Wingmare. In the list posted above they are replaced by Mangara of Corondor and Aven Mindcensor. Both are X/1 creatures too and a bit lower than Vryn Wingmare in lot of situations. We should assume that have to face against all kinds of hate so I think about 8 non X/1 creatures are enough.

    I think we have to find the right balance again between non X/1 beaters and X/1 hatebears. I'd start playing the full set of Phyrexian Revoker. I consider this fact pretty important.

  16. #5116
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I would play any number of Vryn Wingmares over any number of Aven Mindcensors. But the meta being good for D+T might also make the meta worse for x/1s.

  17. #5117
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by BearsandSquires View Post
    I kinda want to find some room for celestial purge in the board. It hits all those delve cards along with sneak attack, Lilli, young pyro, and even dread of night
    Not to mention sulfur elemental. I think I want to find a spot or two for that card in my sideboard as well.

    On the topic of sulfur elemental how do you guys handle him in the miracles matchup? If you know that your opponent is going to bring in some number of sulfur elementals do you have to keep in some number of swords for him? Is it just better to have something in your sideboard like veteran armorer for cards like that or do you just board normally in hopes you draw judgement to get rid of him?

  18. #5118
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Lately I keep all four STP vs miracles these days, w/ mentors, elemental and staticaster all being pretty necessary kill on sight targets. The DTT ban will help a bit cause they won't hit them so damn often now.

  19. #5119
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Note that I am playing the RW build though, which doesn't have as much of a tempo game and has fewer beaters.

  20. #5120

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    WW:

    Vryn Wingmare is best as a 3-4 of. I am proposing something like 1/1 Mangara/Mindcensor. Mindcensor helps against certain matchups like Elves and decks with fetch, while Mangara is good against decks with a lot of permanents game 1. Often both will be taken out for something else in their worst matches and in their best, they are very good as 1-ofs.

    The main thing is that I want to cut two x/1's for Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger. Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf both get better and in that situation, Crusader is strong.

    If I am right, I expect a resurgence of Jund, BUG/RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, UW(x) Stoneblade, Deathblade, Infect, and Elves, alongside Storm. Vryn Wingmare is solid against Delver and Storm (if you live until turn 3, in which case Game 1 you probably hit Thalia turn 2.) It's mediocre to bad against the midrange and creature combo decks.

    Of course, you could do something like this (you go heavy on 3-drops and drop Serra Avenger, understanding that against combo decks you bring in Canonist and Priest):
    Lands (23):
    10 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy

    Creatures (26):
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Vryn Wingmare
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Mirran Crusader
    1 Mangara of Corondor

    Spells (11):
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard (15):
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Ethersworn Cannonist
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Council's Judgment
    2 Cataclysm
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Absolute Law
    1 Sword of War and Peace

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