I agree we are greedy little piggies, but I think I'm fine with that. I want vial at 3 anyway.
The problem with so many 3 drips isnt that we play to few lands, but that we often dont curve well. Is a starting hand with 3 lands, vial and three 3 drops where you want to be?
The problem is, here, that Shalai does not do much versus Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge. On the contrary, it gives you an incentive to extend your board, under the protection of Shalai. So that's an issue that's not to be understated. And the only way Gideon gets removed from the battlefield by Miracle is through Council Judgment's, which also answer Shalai btw, and Czech Pile have an even harder time dealing with it.Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
Except vs. storm-combo, where I want it at 2.
That depends. Against some decks I will keep this, especially if those lands are Plains, Port, Wasteland.
Except it does. Karakas-protection has always been in consideration for Shalai, and losing 2 guys to a board wipe isn't the end of the world when you can subsequently replay Shalai. Also, throwing down Prelate under Shalai becomes a very real possibility for blocking a lot of board wipes, or throwing down some dominating offensive threat like Mirran Crusader to just close the game on its own.
Every opponent also has answers to Gideon, whether Strix + Bolt, Clique, TNN, or anything else. Shalai forces the opponent into a very narrow path, which they're less likely able to tread.
Oh, and flying is really good.
Well, I meant she does not protect herself. You need the small combo Karakas + legendary. Plus, good Miracle players will bring in their Blood Moons, if they're on Jeskai ofc, versus DnT, to shut off Port and recursive Thalia's. So this is also something to be taken into account, when competing her with Gideon.
In general, I am not sure that relying on specific synergies is the way to go. Synergies are what makes our deck a deck, but one cannot rely on a specific setup to win, or hedge against a specific deck. Our threats need to be self-sufficient. Of course, one day you'll have the perfect setup, and no one will come close to threatening you. But most of the time you won't, and those are the times that matter. And that's why I believe Gideon is a better 4-drop. It's just more reliable, and works on its own. Of course, sometimes you'll get wrecked, and Gideon won't do anything, but I doubt any other card would really matter in those circumstances anyway. Taking a precise setup of cards, or sequence of plays, is not a good way to point out the power-level of a card, because we always find the setups in which the card is insane/really bad. What counts, is how it fares on average.
And here I must admit I didn't play Shalai enough to back my thoughts with statistics. So maybe you're right, and indeed she's a better 4-drop ouf of the board than Gideon. I guess time, and results, will tell.
This is all fair. Back to Basics is also in the Miracles toolkit. That said, this is really the only match where I'd worry about it. Many of them don't bother with Moon or B2B after game 1 against us, because we tend to manage those effects just fine (12 Basics + 4 Vials does that), and thus a Shalai out of the board may find Karakas unchecked.
As for synergies, Karakas is not our only option there. Mom + Shalai is untargetable, which basically locks out most of Delver's options other than Deluge. Prelate can also close those options down. Shalai is not about one synergy, but many possible synergies, and is fairly solid on her own. That is the story with most of the cards in our deck. Only a very few, like Brightling, are mostly self-contained in their excellence. So Shalai being good on her own, and excellent with support is not a bug, but rather a feature.
As for this specific bit:
Well, that line tells me you clearly haven't played with Cataclysm enough to judge its effectiveness.
As long as it works for you and you like your choices mate, it's all fine to me. Just explaining how I'm reasoning when assessing a card, and explaining why I would rather go for Gideon over Shalai in the sideboard. It's obviously all up for debate, which is part of what makes Legacy (and DnT) such an interesting format. In the end, it's all about having thought through it, and be confident in one's choices, plus a little bit of luck on the day of the tournament.
By the way, are you the same Darkview that's also active on the Discord channel?
Either that, or I'm impersonating someone eminently unimportant.
Could I get an invite to said Discord channel?
Thanks. I'll be testing a list w/1 Cleric, 2 Brightling, 2 Shalai, 24th land later today. Will report back.
Shalai and Brightling MB both? Or Brightling MB, Shalai SB?
All MB. Greedy for sure, but I'm curious. SB is same as Phil's.
As posted some days ago I went to a local Legacy Tournament in northern Germany (http://www.eternal-clash.com/start/). This time we were 69 Players (quite good for the fact that Germany had a matchday in the World Cup). So 7 rounds of swiss into Top 8.
I played this:
Lands (23):
1 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains
Creatures (26):
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter
3 Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 SfM
4 Mother
4 Flickerwisp
Others (11):
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Relic-Warder
1 SoWaP
1 Containment Priest
2 RiP
2 Extraction
2 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Judgement
2 Cataclysm
Round 1 against Sneak & Show - 2:1
G1 Lost against T4 Show & Tell = Emrakul
G2 Won with Thalia + Waste + Brightling as a normal 3/3 Beatstick
G3 Won with Wasteland on Volc and oppo couldnt find enough Lands fast enough
Round 2 against 4C Pile - 2:0
G1 Opponent played 4 Strix + Leo and some stuff but I got 4 Vials + 1 early and 1 late Crusader
G2 Opponent kept Usea + Island and 2 DRS but he never found a red source and died with Bolt, K Command, Grudge in hand.
Round 3 against Lands - 2:0
G1 Prelate on 2 and Revoker for Vortex, he died to his own Chasm
G2 RiP + Grind against Tabernacle, he missed his own trigger for his Tracker and died to Prelate some turns later
Round 4 against Burn - 2:1
G1 Swords for this turn one Guide, got some dmg from Swiftspear + Eidolon but a second SfM gets Batterskull online which takes over the game
G2 Lost against Swiftspear into Searing Blaze on SfM, Smash on my SoWaP ends me quite well
G3 very tight where I handle his threads with 2 Swords + 1 Path and creeping back in life with SoWaP but only 2 cards in hand. Me on 8 Life my oppo taps out for Firecraft and I have Thalia with Vial so he cant cast his Fireblast as well
Round 5 against 12 Post - 0:2
G1 I have a turn with 2 Wasteland but my opponent got Elvish Spirit Guide + untapped Forest + 2 Crop Rotation to blank my plays....pretty big board on my side which even can survive a Emrakul attack, I Vial in a Flickerwisp to shorten my clock targeting my Recruiter to get another Wisp. Opponent plays maindeck Warping Wail. He was then able to generate "25" Mana for hardcast Emrakul + Ulamog. Misplayed here should have played the Mana Denial plan with Port instead of shorten the clock.
G2 I played a Cataclysm when he would have been able to cast Ulamog or Ugin on his turn. He had 4 cards in hand so I guess the Cataclysm was timed well. He only had Lands + Krosan Grip in Hand and I never saw more lands and I lose this game as well.
Round 6 against DnT - 1:1
G1 Im the one who connects with Jitte first
G2 Grindy game where we both have active Mothers + Revoker my Opponent plays Gideon at some point where he maybe could climb back into the game one turn later he plays a rly bad Cataclysm loses his Gideon and im Left with SfM + Jitte and he only with a Mom and a Needle on Vial. He has a lot of life at this point and I get him down to 3 and then to one, at this point I only have to draw one more land to win the game but 7 Turns later I lose the Game.
Round 7 against BR Reanimator - 2:1
G1 Weird and grindy until he races me with a Chancelor
G2 Surgical on his turn 1 reanimate on Griselbrand, some turns later I manage to win with Karakas in play and Path on Tyrant
G3 I mull on 6 and my Oppo even to 5. I have wasteland for his Badlands which he has to play for a Looting turn 1. On his 2 turn he has a window to find exactly Reanimate with his one Mana left. He didnt and I play RiP and lock up the Top 8
So 5/1/1 and 4th place after swiss
TOP 8:
Quarters against DnT (same players as before) - 2:0
G1 Good draw with Mom, SfM and so on. Jitte connects and l win some turns later.
G2 A bit grindy but after some minor and one major misplay from my opponent I have Batterskull, SoWaP and Jitte in play.
Semis against 12 Post (again...) - 0:2
G1 TKS + Conduit of Ruin makes it impossible for me to attack on the ground and I die to a second Conduit
G2 I manage to get some early dmg in then he plays Conduit again putting Ulamog on top of his Library. Again I play (imo) a well timed Cataclysm keeping a Wisp to have a 3 Turn clock in the air. Again I cant find a land to the right time and a topdecked Expedition Map for Glimmerpost and 3 Life makes it possible for him to stay in the Game and one turn later he resolves his Ulamog.
Again a good result with some weird results...
Brightling wasnt as important as I wished. Beatstick against Sneak & Show but never saw him in important MU's (Burn, 4C).
SoWaP was sideboard MVP again
I played 3 times Cataclysm this day and one was played against me. I would say the ones I played where necessary and timed quite well but everytime a Cataclysm was resolved in a game I played today...I Lost. Gideon wouldnt have been better or something in those situations. I guess it was just not the day for the Clysm.
Lost 2 Matches today and both against the same player.
24th land is a good idea with that build.
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Maybe it is a tricky question/issue but to the more experienced: how do you use statistics to base your testing? I mean, information is hardly ever enough, yet how many matches played with a certain deck against specific other decks are "enough" data to try to come to a conclusion on a "fixed decklist" for D&T?
Additionally, I imagine intensive testing is done on MTGO. During these testings are 'opponent playing level' considered or it's considered random enough?
I can't speak for everyone else, but I largely put every match into a personal SmartMagic Spreadsheet, and go from there. I don't try to make determinations based on factors like skill level as there are too many things to take into account (level of overall talent, familiarity with legacy, practice with their specific deck, level of focus, fatigue, luck, and so forth). There has to be a pretty good reason for me not to count a match (like: my opponent straight-up concedes to me to go get food). But these are a reflection of my play as much as they are the strength of overall pairings.
While there is not an agreed "optimal list," and such a list would vary by metagame, there are certain points of general agreement that basically all reasonably successful players agree on after playing something approaching 100 matches. Examples might be, "Turbo Depths is an easy match," "Elves is almost unwinnable," "Prioritize Thalia turn 2 against an unknown opponent playing blue, black, or red," and so on. So while there are going to be some disagreements (see the heated debate over 4-mana SB cards above), there is a lot that is fairly fixed and invariant across the population.
Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet. I had one of my own but this spreadsheet is way better!
What other sources for Legacy D&T content do you follow? Regarding streamers on Twitch, who else is worth following aside from Phil?
My local $15 event only had 8 players so we played 3 rounds. Went 2-0-1. Brightling is a champ and a half.
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