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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9381

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I think Path is as good as ever, considering that Grixis Delver is the best deck in legacy. The format is the 'beat DRS' game right now, and dropping both a RiP and Paths is definitely not the way to do that - the second sideboard looks like it's built to beat Miracles.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 Paths is probably mandatory in the board now for both RW and WW. I'm not actually sure I like RiP in the Grixis Delver matchup anymore though; I've stopped boarding in it so I can keep my recruiters post-board vs their more grindy gameplan.

  2. #9382
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Top 4'd the Legacy Challenge (85 players) last night with non-DFD Wr D&T.

    Czech Pile, the D&T master Thomas Enevoldsen (2-0)
    Czech Pile, the Pile master Tomas Mar (0-2)
    Big Eldrazi (2-0)
    Grixis Delver (2-1)
    UW StoneBlade (2-1)
    Czech Pile (2-0)
    UWR Miracles (2-0)

    Top 8:

    Dragon Stompy (2-0)
    UWR Miracles, Anuraag Das (0-2)

    The deck felt great in a meta with a decent amount of fair (and greedy manabase) decks, opposite than competitive leagues IMO.

    Luckily a friend of mine could avenge me in the finals :)
    In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES

  3. #9383

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Congratulations on your results Koke. Out of curiosity, what went so different between your 2 first matches vs Czech Pile?

    And now I have a more general question about the Miracle's matchup: how do you guys apprehend the matchup? And what's your way to approach the game plan?

    I am lucky enough to have a friend on Miracles with whom I can test the matchup a lot. Since it's back on the front of the scene, I've found the matchup to be very unfavorable, and thus have been open to try some new strategies, or game plans.
    And quite surprisingly, I got some good results recently on a Wb build (splash for Orzhov Pontiff) by boarding out the whole SFM package (note: I do not play a Sword of War and Peace in the side), and keeping in 2x Mirran Crusader and Palace Jailer in. My gameplan would then be putting a lot of board pressure with creatures (Thalia, Wisp, Mirran), with backup removal spells (Council Judgement, Cataclysm and Surgical for either StP or Terminus. StP being boarded out), and play the residual control game with 2x Sanctum (1 main 1 board) and 3x Revoker. It turned out that getting 4 - 8 pts of damage in the time SFM would actually be active was more relevant. Plus Disenchant effects were less of a pain.
    Jailer turned out surprisingly good as well, either to get rid of Mentor before he gets out of hand or to create pure card advantage. It requires some experience in the matchup to ponder whether it's too risky to jam it, but I've had only good results when using it carefully.

    Obviously, and as always, I've felt like playing another deck when I had a resolved Vial to rely on. But that's just old news.

    What do you think? And what's your overall feeling on the matchup?

  4. #9384
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Well, the Czech Pile matchup is based on who can outgrind the other no matter what. For this reason, I think with my Wr build is an OK matchup because you have so many tools to do so. Otherwise, Czech Pile is the best deck in the format doing that... Is a pretty nice battle in which the luck always stays there for sure and the guy that gets more CA and/or can do more/better unfair things is gonna win most likely.

    R1 G1: I ended up winning because of Karakas + Thalia + P&K advantage.
    R1 G2: Involved Cataclysm + Palace Jailer (I lost the crown at some point to recover it after Cataclysm) + mana screw of Thomas after Cataclysm helped with Thalia, Port, killed DRS with Jitte... and ending the game with P&K. So almost every single grindy tool. Not bad ^^

    R2 G1: He kept at one turn attacking with 3 P&K thopters but also had Bolt + 2 active DRS and finished me at 10+ lifes in his last turn.
    R2 G2: I established Thalia + RiP + some utility lands until he sequence Marsh Casualties into JtMS, forcing me to play a Cataclysm that was not amazing and he ended up recovering better than me with DRS and Strixes.

    On the other hand, I consider the Miracles matchup even more Vial-dependant for us that it was before. You can fight games without it but it's really hard, our deck becomes linear and predictable by them, jamming a single creature every turn, at sorcery speed, without doing some important things at the same time like Porting, wasting tempo equiping, etc... They're like opposite poles games. Overall, I think it'is pretty balanced and, as I always say, is the matchup I enjoy the most in Legacy!

    I approach the matchup as some other grindy games, trying to get CA out of nowhere, on every single interaction. Obviously is pretty different than grind a BGx based deck, as I feel myself playing more carefully (you can be out after every single cantrip if you're not paying attention to what's happening) and giving much more value to Vial, as it's a deck more efficient, more resilient to our mana denial and a deck that can force you to interact, contrary to BGx grindy decks that are more proactive and they're gonna interact naturally. Miracles can play a role similar to a combo deck if you do nothing.
    In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES

  5. #9385
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hi @ll,

    I played a Blue Tax list at a monthly tournament (40 players) and I want to give you a short report. Here are the 75´s.


    Main:
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Field of Ruin
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    2 Karakas
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Mother of Runes
    1 Palace Jailer
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Plains
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Spell Queller
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Tundra
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Vendilion Clique
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:
    2 Back to Basics
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Disenchant
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Meddling Mage
    1 Palace Jailer
    1 Path to Exile
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Chill


    The tournament was ok with 3-3-0. I started 3-0 and wasn´t able to win at least a fourth match, but for an untested/unplayed deck it was ok.
    Round 1 vs. Grixis Delver 2-1; Highlights: Game 3 I have more TNNs than him and can equip Batterskull to TNN
    Round 2 vs. Omnitell 2-0; Highlights: Game 2 Meddling Mage on Show and Tell
    Round 3 vs. Show and Tell 2-0
    Round 4 vs. Turbo Depths 0-2
    Round 5 vs Storm 1-2; Lowlights: Game 2 Nuts for the opponent turn 2 Kill, Game 3 Opp draws Cabal Therapy to strip my canonist
    Round 6 vs. BUG Delver 0-2; Lowlights: Opp had in both games the perfect answers and lines to my cards

    Chill was a meta call because there could be a lot of Burn and Red Fringe decks at this tournament. Furthermore I played 1 Venser, Shaper Savant and 1 Palace Jailer in contrast to the list on Magic Online with 2 Palace Jailers in the main. Venser was very cool in the main and I was always happy when I drew him. He can be very strong in long games when you can setup enough mana and Karakas. Field of ruin is quite nice and I think I would continue with 2 of them. Meddling Mage was MVP vs a lot of decks and I boarded him a lot.
    Overall it was a lot of fun to play this list and it is funny to see the opponents faces when you start to cast brainstorm or “counter” (with Speller and Venser) in a “DNT” Deck. I will definitely continue testing the deck.

    At the moment I am not sure which deck I would play at GP Birmingham Blue Tax or RW Taxes, some advices from you guys?

    Cheers

  6. #9386

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I would not recommend playing a relatively untested decklist that hasn't put up a ton of results unless you are *very* confident in its win rate.

  7. #9387
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Playing in the SCG team tournament. I hadnt played legacy since the top banning until last week (played mono green 12 post and it made me rage quit the format with the banning) I started with the stock lists ( single avenger,palace jailer) lists. I started doing some slight tweaks to fit my style of play and this is where I am currently


    Creature (26)
    4x Flickerwisp
    1x Mangara of Corondor
    2x Mirran Crusader
    4x Mother of Runes
    3x Phyrexian Revoker
    2x Recruiter of the Guard
    1x Sanctum Prelate
    1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4x Stoneforge Mystic
    4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Land (23)
    2x Cavern of Souls
    3x Karakas
    10x Plains
    4x Rishadan Port
    4x Wasteland
    Artifact(7)
    4x Aether Vial
    1x Batterskull
    1x Sword of Fire and Ice
    1x Umezawa's Jitte
    Instant (4)
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    Sideboard (15)
    1x Cataclysm
    1x Containment Priest
    2x Council's Judgment
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    1x Faerie Macabre
    1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    1x Holy Light
    1x Leonin Relic-Warder
    1x Path to Exile
    1x Peacekeeper
    2x Rest in Peace
    1x Sword of War and Peace

    Ive gone 4-1, 5-0, 2-3,3-2 so some mixed results.

    Ill probably cut the mangara, its been very meh, often dont live the dream of bouncing with karakas and I usually wish it was a threat when I draw into it, however I didnt care too much for avenger so maybe a 3rd mirran crusader?

    In the board holy light has over performed, getting pyro and friends off the table and having another answer for true name nemisis and elves decks. Havent played against infect since my return but I imagine its fine there as well....

    Peace keeper is another card thats over performing ,great to tutor up when behind until you can get into a slightly more favorable position or using wisp to flick it on their endstep so you can chip in some damage, also keeps elves at bay.

    sword of war and peace, I just cant decide, obviously great in the mirror but I've cut it from the board a few times, usually for a 2nd cataclysm- is this sword really needed? I dont expect many people to play DNT in paper.

    Just looking for some insight on why I may be wrong with some of my choices. Like I said, Ive had mixed results so maybe Ive just been lucky with this current set up.

  8. #9388

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    D&T is one of the most popular decks for paper events. All of the reprints are making that even more true. It usually sits at ~7% of the metagame, and it was 8% of the day 2 metagame of Worcester. It's worth having some sort of plan for the mirror, though that plan doesn't have to include SoWaP.

    Crusader is great right now. Your hunch is probably correct there. I'd also recommend cutting Spirit of the Labyrinth; that card has been absolute trash for me in some pretty extensive testing.

  9. #9389
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes



    Recently I had some minds about the Card Weathered Wayfarer in DnT builds in your 75s, but I am not sure about the amount of Slots you can use for it. Usually I would say this Card is a 1-of maximum as you can search for it with Recruiter of the Guard.

    The Card enables a kind of toolbox of your Lands to get something like Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, Mishra's Factory or even some spicy things like Thespian's Stage for opposing Dark Depths. This List could be long...

    For your understanding I would like to point out the fact, that you can Wasteland your opponent and hold priority, to have less Lands in play than him/her and then use the Wayfarer to get another Wasteland.

    Would be interesting what you other players think about the Card and the positioning in the current Metagame and maybe show Matchup where it shines and where you shouldn't count on it.

    kind regards

  10. #9390
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by EronRelentless View Post


    Recently I had some minds about the Card Weathered Wayfarer in DnT builds in your 75s, but I am not sure about the amount of Slots you can use for it. Usually I would say this Card is a 1-of maximum as you can search for it with Recruiter of the Guard.

    The Card enables a kind of toolbox of your Lands to get something like Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, Mishra's Factory or even some spicy things like Thespian's Stage for opposing Dark Depths. This List could be long...

    For your understanding I would like to point out the fact, that you can Wasteland your opponent and hold priority, to have less Lands in play than him/her and then use the Wayfarer to get another Wasteland.

    Would be interesting what you other players think about the Card and the positioning in the current Metagame and maybe show Matchup where it shines and where you shouldn't count on it.

    kind regards
    Wayfarer required fetchlands to be effective. It was used in really days of vial Maverick as a source of CA and lock piece combined with Scryb ranger which is great enabler for him. Was dropped bacuase of too many little dorks with X/1 statistics expose you to -1/-1 effects. It is also quite slow and require Mana investment same as port.

    Maybe some new vial version with him and Raillerem would see play, try to break new build. But you mostly loses tempo which is so good in today D&T and loses toolboxing which is implemented in Maverick, and gain slow wasteland lock based on X/1 creatures.

    So better try G/W build based on vials with 4 Railler, 4 Flickerwisp, so more focused on CA to fight nasty k.command but with focus on tempo.

  11. #9391
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Blue-white DNT hates itself too much. You may have a good go with it at first, but you will grow to hate the issues that come up in the long run.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  12. #9392

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    So, I finally took the plunge to go from 1998-style ShadowClysm to 2018-style DnT. The creatures had already shifted, but adopting mana-denial through lands over 4-mana sorceries is achange that's 20 years overdue. Medea_ gave me some pointers already, but I remembered that this is the place to be to talk Legacy. I'm having a blast already, and I'm in love with the highly technical play-style.

    I'm also reading the dialogue about SB options and splashes. I'm going to stick to the staple mono-white list for now, but I am paying a lot of attention to the nuances of what is being discussed. In particular, tweaking around my SB based on what I'm reading (ie: figuring out how to cram in a pair of PtEs).

    I don't really have a lot to contribute yet, as I know I don't have enough experience yet. The only thing that jumped out at me was wondering if anyone had ever tried packing a mainboard Canonist or two, either instead of or in addition to the Thalia, Guardian slots. It seems to me this would go a long way towards helping some of the more problematic match-ups, has general utility, and wouldn't really undermine the main game.

  13. #9393
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    I don't really have a lot to contribute yet, as I know I don't have enough experience yet. The only thing that jumped out at me was wondering if anyone had ever tried packing a mainboard Canonist or two, either instead of or in addition to the Thalia, Guardian slots. It seems to me this would go a long way towards helping some of the more problematic match-ups, has general utility, and wouldn't really undermine the main game.
    It definitely has been done, I used to do it in the Treasure Cruise era and at times when people happened to be playing a lot of Storm around here. Never in place of Thalia though, she is the reason the deck exists and even if it punishes you from time to time with obnoxious multiples, I don't think it's a great idea to remove any.

    In these days of Recruiter, I certainly would not maindeck more than one Canonist though. It is sometimes good, sometimes literally a grizzly bear, sometimes just too slow in the matchups where you really want it anyway. It's fine, try it out and see how it does in your meta. But don't cut the critical creatures of the deck for it though, it's not that good.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  14. #9394

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @lord darkview

    Welcome to the forums! Canonist is a reasonable maindeck card, but people often find that it's a bit lackluster.

  15. #9395

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Has anyone else been watching Bahra's SfM-less builds on stream? I have seen bits of them but work has not allowed to me to watch them completely. Any thoughts on going SfM/Equipment-less? Clearly, it opens up slot to do other things, but it also introduces some weaknesses. I asked him how he like it and he said it was good but different and not necessarily better.

  16. #9396

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Can someone please post Bahra's latest SFM-less list of 75 here please.

  17. #9397

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Main
    5 Fetch lands
    3 Plateau
    3 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    1 Scrubland

    4 Aether Vial

    4 Mom
    4 SotL
    4 TGoT
    4 Serra Avenger
    4 Direfleet Daredevil
    4 Vryn Wingmare
    4 Flickerwisp
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
    1 Magus

    Sideboard
    3 PtE
    2 Pontiff
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Surgical
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Mindbreak trap
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Pia and Kirran
    1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
    1 Cunning Sparkmage

  18. #9398
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    SfM-less builds
    If all the grindy decks move to removal spells that kill our equipment just as easily as our creatures, it is definitely worth considering.

    If the fast decks are everywhere and cause us to board out the whole SFM package too often, it is definitely worth considering.

    I don't feel like either of those are the current situation, but cool to see. My dream is still blue taxes curving SotL into Clique.

    Edit: On stream he is also getting a lot of points from people just being on autopilot from playing against the "standard" lists. Blind Therapy naming SFM, etc. Super fun to watch.
    Last edited by ChrisCunningham; 03-23-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  19. #9399

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I like the idea, and going up to 4 Flickerwisp/4 Serra Avenger/4 Vryn Wingmare actually make the aerial beats more effective.

    I am not sure about the following:
    - 0 main deck removal. The removal does not have to be spells, it could be creatures.
    - 0 Phyrexian Revoker. This card feels really strong against a lot of decks, but also an easy drop against other decks to make room for sideboard cards.
    - 1 Magus of the Moon. I kind of still want 2 main, though that is tougher with Avenger.
    - Haven't been thrilled with Daredevil. Not in a "Ben Affleck Daredevil" bad kind of way, but just a bit where it runs hot or cold in a sideboard card kind of way.

  20. #9400

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I played 2 leagues today, both 4-1 and really a tough loss to swallow in the very last match of the second league where I had about 5 turns to draw anything relevant and drew it on the turn I was dead.

    Okay so I'll explain the thoughts behind this version of the deck, so you can try to understand my card choices and the reason why I believe this kind of build can be really good at this point in the meta.

    First of all a few observations of the meta:

    1. People play main deck artifact removal, almost as much as they play regular removal (which they play a lot of)
    2. A lot of decks run discard spells, and an especially brutal one - Cabal Therapy - is extremely effective against D&T and particularly Stoneforge Mystic
    3. The combo decks of this meta are super streamlined and well equipped to beating a regular semi-hateful D&T deck with flex slots mainly dedicated to brainless beaters
    4. Swords to Plowshares fails to deal with the biggest threats of a majority of decks, and even the decks they are supposed to shine against, they once again fall short in dealing with the biggest issues

    Then a few observations about D&T specifically:

    1. D&T is slower than it has been for years, there's a lot of ways to lose tempo and very few to regain it in current builds
    2. Stoneforge Mystic seems to be the biggest offender when it comes to losing tempo, often requiring a 6 mana investment for a solid return but easily dealt with completely by 1-2 cards at 2-3 total mana
    3. Swords to Plowshares is often boarded out, so often that I would argue it should never have 4 copies in the main deck
    4. The cards we count on in D&T often create fragile board states and/or gets easily x for 1'd by opponent's sideboard cards

    So if we assume that these observations are ALL accurate, what is the next step? (I'm only gonna talk about the main deck here, as the sideboard might still need a lot of work)

    Let's reduce the amount of mana intensive cards, lets reduce the amount of artifacts, and lets reduce the amount of ineffective spot removal.

    Bring Rishadan Port back to its former glory by freeing up some mana and let's up the tax!

    1. -4 Stonerforge Mystic -3 Equipments
    2. -4 Phyrexian Revoker
    3. -4 Swords to Plowshares

    That's a lot of cards. But also a lot of non-creatures, so let's up the creature count. And let's add creatures that doesn't need Sword of Fire & Ice to look scary.

    The result as of now:




    Dire Fleet Daredevil is super solid, it functions mostly as a 3 drop to Ponder/Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push or similar. And that's good, I didn't realize how powerful Ponder was in D&T before this guy.
    But sometimes it is absolutely nuts, flashing back Toxic Deluge to remove 2x Deathrite Shaman and 2x Baleful Strix to free up Serra Avenger to attack again. Flashing back Fiery Confluence to kill 3x Ensnaring Bridge vs. 8 moon stompy etc

    Spirit of the Labyrinth I'm sure you're all familiar with, not the best but the occasional game winning anti-brainstorm play, attacks for 3 and shuts down Griselbrand, Jace etc. It deserves a playset so far in my opinion

    Vryn Wingmare after a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is already a pretty terrifying board, attacking through True-Name Nemesis and trading with Delvers is nice too

    Thalia, Heretic Cathar is something that I've missed, a complete back breaker against Sneak and Show and something I can play in the main deck, with little Thalia it presents 5 power first strike on the defense which is super relevant vs. Eldrazi and sometimes Gurmag Angler as well

    Hallowed Spiritkeeper is one I had to go to gatherer to dig up, only a few decks play Swords to Plowshares in this meta, and all the ones that don't - and are still trying to kill our creatures - are terrified of Hallowed Spiritkeeper. Picture True-Name Nemesis with Vigilance and resilience to sweepers

    That's about it for the "odd" includes, I think the deck makes a lot of sense right now, it'll quickly die off if people start to put a lot of Dread of Night in their sideboards, but the rest of the hate is not strong enough to deal with this configuration in my experience.

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