I don't play Death and Taxes, I play Maverick. But I just wanted to say thank you for those videos with Shalai, I was thinking about testing 1 maybe even in the SB but after all the praise you gave it I slammed 2 in the main deck and it's been strong, even killed with Gavony Township.
<3
To keep it on-topic I guess: Play Shalai in your DNT deck :^)
Shalai looks like a total bomb. She dodges so much of the common removal pretty well blanking common anti-DnT cards.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Being a 4cmc card that still dies to Fatal Push but more importantly gets bounced by opposing Karakas is a major downside though. I played Shalai for a while and liked it, until I faced decks with Karakas in them, I then replaced it with Restoration Angel which turned out better I'd say but eventually I cut it since it just wasn't what I wanted.Originally Posted by Finn
Has anyone tried Mangara with Shalai? I'm considering a grindier build like this:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Surgical Extraction
No.
My semi-quantitative analysis has indicated that Shalai is overperforming many competitors for the same slot right now (significantly better than Crusader, slightly better than Crusader). In my own experience, she's been quite good, though I think I've drawn both copies a disproportionate number of times (which is a statistical anomaly I try to discount). I'm about 80-20 on whether 24 lands + 2 Shalai is better than 3 more threats. I think her value increases the worth of certain more vulnerable cards, like Avenger, Prelate, and Wingmare. A slight shift in the metagame is sufficient to move her down relative to the others, however.
As for combining her with Mangara, I find it a bit slow but I can certainly appreciate its strengths as well (preventing the opponent from messing with the interaction). That said, I'm not as big on the build as presented. I'd recommend changing the MB as follows: -2 Mangara, -1 Karakas, -1 Flagstones, +2 Recruiter, +2 Plains. This will give you some more insulation from the increasing amount of Wastelands, B2B, and Moon-effects floating around, and a bit more flexibility on whether you want Mangara or something else. After all, if you have the time to grind with Mangara, the difference between drawing it naturally or tutoring for it is probably not huge.
Not to be pedantic, but that’s very well organized qualitative analysis. I actually prefer qualitative analysis to quantitative, because it’s difficult to have a good enough sample size to have meaningful results, and even when you do quantifying games of magic is all but impossible due to variance and strategy/tactical decisions.
True about Fatal Push. But, in Legacy there are going to be answers for everything. You are talking about a sometimes answer that a couple of decks run a couple of copies of. STP hits her also. And Edict. But Kolaghans Command, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Forked Bolt, etc. don't. And while opposing Karakas is an issue (and I think kind of a big one), we also get to save her with our own. I think I would tick Vial up to 4 for her if I have Karakas at the ready. She just seems to need fairly un-DnT hate for opponents to handle her, and I want to make sure that we are giving her a proper chance. How much testing did you get to do before scrapping her?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I played 4-5 leagues I don't remember now, about 20 matches with 2 copies.
Edict doesn't work on her, you have hexproof ;)
YEAH, right! Bitch is a bomb.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
In all truth, normally a 4-2 finish (our team went 3-3 and dropped) would not be worth reporting, however I would like to suggest that my SCG Baltimore event merits an exception.
Firstly, I ran this list:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
5 Snow-Covered Plains
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of souls
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Holy Light
Shalai is one of the new items that has been getting tested. It was a question as to how good she would be. For me, the question is answered. Unless I was so far behind that nothing but Batterskull (thank you vigilance lifelink) was getting me back, she generally ended games. That said, Bahra and Medea have similar experiences with her against Karakas, and maybe she just comes out in those matches, but I don't care that she dies to Fatal Push. My whole deck except Crusader dies to Push. If an opponent has to kill her instead something else, that often puts me ahead. And she doesn't die to Bolt, Abrupt Decay or K-Command or Edicts, which literally everything else we have does. She is, except for Mirran Crusader, the hardest creature in DnT to kill.
Against Grixis Delver, I never, ever draw Holy Light, but if I had, it would also have completely changed games. I think it is good right now.
Most importantly, I played 6 rounds, and 5 of them were against Devler and I won 4 of those matches, for an 80% win rate against Delver with this list, and two of the matches were against players who are quantifiably better than I am. That is not inconsiderable. In 2 of those matches, resolved Shalai ended two games on resolution for all intents and purposes.
Round 1 vs. Grixis Delver 2-1
Game 1 I got completely ranched by Young Pyro. I went from 15 to 4 in one swing. However,games 2 and 3, I found equipment and some combination of Flickerwisp and Mirran Crusader, which was my path to victory most fo the day.
I never had Vial in.
Round 2 vs. Miracles 1-2
I took game 1 on the back of Flickerwisp. After a Terminus, I had SoFi and nothing else when my opponent tapped on their turn to play Entreat for 3. On my turn I was able to Flicker one and play a Mom. I then dropped Flickerwisp #2 and StP the third one, and then was able to equip a Flickerwisp wtih SoFi and ride it home.
Game 2 was an endless stream of StP, Snap + StP, Terminus, followed by Mentor and a token parade.
Game 3, he kept 7 and I mulled to 4. Refusing to give up, I dropped a Vial on turn 2, which he summarily Disenchanted, and then he played Mentor, which I tried to Council's Judgment, which he Fow'd. At that point I had no cards in hand and he had 3, all of which were cantrips and I died.
No Vial activations again in any of the games. Not sure what I do with that game 3, I mulled unplayable hands into something, which happens.
Round 3 vs. RUG Delver 2-0
I did not expect this. In fact, Game 1 was so quick and he played so few cards that were specific to any manabase that I still thought he was on Grixis Delver. However, with neither of us having a creature in play on turn 4 and both effectively hell bent, I drew and dropped Shalai. He looked at her, looked at me, and took one more turn and scooped.
Game 2, I realized he was on RUG and I had boarded incorrectly (no RiP). However, 3 MirranCrusader still beats his decks.
Round 4 1-2 vs. Grixis Delver played by pro player Tannon Grace
Tannon is a very good player and also a very nice opponent. Game 1, he had, and he admitted he had, the nut Delver hand and draws. He pretty much ran me over with sheer efficiency on the back of a turn 2 Pyromancer. Losing a game to a hoard of Pyro tokens was a common theme.
Game 2 is an absolutely insane game. I have Mom + thalia on the board and we both have 3 lands. I have another Mom and Thalia in my hand, plus a Stoneforge Mystic. He casts Marsh Casualties and wipes my board On the next turn I play a land, then Mom and Thalia again. He plays Dread of Night and TNN. I play a land, Stoneforge Mystic getting Jitte, Aether Vial (first one all day that will do anything) and pass. He seemingly can't kill SFM, but he does attack for 3. I tick vial to 1, draw Flickerwisp, and pass. He still can't kill SFM, but he attacks and passes. I activate SFM and put in Jitte. I draw Crusader, equip Jitte to SFM (which is a 0/1), tick up Vial to 2 (not in that order), and pass. He attacks with TNN, Plays Delver and passes. I tick Vial to 3, draw Flickerwisp, Vial in Flickerwisp to bounce Dread. Wisp dies, but SFM attacks, he blocks with Delver. I get two Jitte counters, use one to keep SFM alive when Dread returns and pass. He attacks with TNN, plays a land and DRS and passes. I Vial in Crusader on his end step, which he bolts. I draw Batterskull and pass. He attacks with TNN, plays a land, and passes (I am VERY low on life at this point), and I SFM Batterskull. I draw SoFaI, get one attack with Batterskull to stabilize, and pass, and he activates DRS to drain me 2. He keeps TNN back this time and starts digging with a Ponder and passes. I draw another Flickerwisp and pass. On his turn, I activate SFM to put SoFaI in to play. he attempts to Abrade SoFaI and I flickerwisp it. He scoops. Victory through Marsh Casualties and Dread of Night. Achievement unlocked. Also, this is not precise (I missed when he played lands and draw spells, but he was pretty much hell bent after killing Mom + thalia #2 and playing TNN.) Tannon thanks me for the wildest game of Legacy he has ever played.
Game 3, Its the hyper-efficient Delver draws again. I finally resolve SFM and get Jitte when he has a Delver in play and nothing else. I already have Batterskull and SoFaI in hand, but he does not know that. He attacks with flipped Delver and passes and I draw my 4th land and pass. He attacks with Delver and passes. I vial in Batterskull to see what he can do. He Grudges my B-skully on upkeep. I hard cast Jitte and then act as if it was a mistake and pass. He flashes back Grudge and destroys it. He attacks wtih Delver then plays Pyro and two draw spells to get tokens and then passes. I activate SFM and put in SoFaI and he has Abrade. Without all of the artifact removal, I am pretty sure I stabilize and take over the game, but it would have been close.
Round 5 vs. Grixis Delver (Ian Bosley, a very strong local player with 2 GP Top 8s and 3 SCG Open Top 8s) 2-1
Game 1, was very grindy. Neither of us got any traction for a few turns and I was doing a little damage with thalia, but after 5 turns he was still at 13 and I was at 15. He finally killed Thalia when I had Vials at 3 and 2, but I plow Delver and hard cast SoFaI. He Plays another Delver and passes. I draw Crusader and pass. He flips Delver with Bolt, attacks and passes. I draw Shalai and pass. He attacks with Delver and passes. I ticker Vial to 3 and 4, draw another StP and kill Delver and pass. He plays Young Pyro and passes. I vial in Shalai. I then vial in Crusader. He can't do anything, I equip Crusader and swing with both.
Game 2 I kept a weak opener and got punished.
Game 3, we went toe-to-toe for a few turns and then I resolved Batterskull and Crusader.
Round 6 vs. Grixis Delver 2-0
Game 1, I had no board on turn 3, he resolver Gurmage Angler and starts swinging. I end up with no creatures and Jitte in play with two counters (had to suit up the SFM and chump blick Angler) and on 1 life three turns later. I draw Mom and equip Jitte. He has no cards in hand. He draws and passes. I have 5 lands in play, draw Batterskull, play it and pass. He draws TNN and plays it. I draw SoFaI, play it and equip it to Batterskull, swing for 6 + 2, draw a card, gain 6 life with Mom holding the ground. He swings with TNN and passes back. I equip Jitte to Bskull token with SoFaI and proceed to close the game. he has been at 17 and I was at 1.
Game 2, quick; no muss, no fuss. But we lost anyway.
I liked this build. I just want to know, where the hell were my combo matches? 5 out 6 were against Delver? WTH, RNGesus?!?!?
The argument that "the whole deck dies to fatal push" doesn't really work when you take into account that you're paying 4(!!) mana for this creature.
I'm just saying that I think Shalai is worth it because of how it can take over the game and allow your other creatures to function essentially with impunity. Push by itself does not feel decisive to me so far. [Yes, I am hedging, because I think Shalai is still in testing, as opposed to P+K in Wr. Speaking of which...]
4 mana is certainly a stretch and not getting 2 1/1 flying tokens out of it feels worse than P+K, but in WW, it feels much stronger than Palace Jailer, for example. I would much rather tick Vial to 4 for Shalai than Jailer.
I think your point about Karakas is much more important because Mom can't protect it and the lock it puts on removal is negated for 1 mana. That seems quite awful.
EDIT: What would you do in WW right now, if you ran it, in place of Shalai? For me, the rest of the build felt super solid, so I had two slots to play with and I wanted a flyer. I didn't want to expose my manabase to Grixis Delver Wasteland action and I absolutely did not want to get sucker-punched by -1/-1 effects.
Last edited by redtwister; 05-06-2018 at 09:42 PM.
Perhaps that's correct; I think the terms semi-qualitative and semi-quantitative start to blur at a point, and I opted for the latter. It's definitely not fully quantitative.
Let me know if the analysis was useful at all, or you have any suggestions. It was a little project that took a couple of hours tops, but I hope it benefited someone that wasn't me.
That was a great report, with some interesting insights. I think you got lucky at times, but you clearly played sharp enough to give yourself as many opportunities to have that luck. I'm also running a list that includes Shalai and Crusader, and that matches some of my experiences (admittedly more limited sample size and probably against poorer opponents).
How do you feel about 23 lands? Was it enough? I have a Plains and Prelate where you have your 3rd and 4th Crusaders, and I've been considering going back to 23 land and fitting either Brimaz or a 3rd Crusader.
It depends on what else you have to do with the mana at that point. However, if you can protect Shalai from Push, you protect everything from Push... and all other removal. This is not irrelevant.
I did my best to play to my outs every single game. This -> "you clearly played sharp enough to give yourself as many opportunities to have that luck." I felt better about my play yesterday than any big Legacy tournament I have ever played in.
I like 23 lands, despite Shalai. 4 Mirran Crusader was also great, but if I had to play 5/6ths of my matches against Delver again, Brimaz might at least keep parity on tokens, giving me more blockers when they go wide. I also always like Brimaz against Miracles, since it is an army in a can and you don't need to play anything else (a worse version of Monstery Mentor?)
How do you all board against Mentor Miracles, aside from bringing in Cataclysm or Gideon, btw? Do you keep StP in and take out Revoker?
EDIT: The winners of the Open, congrats to them, are Baltimore locals. My team beat them at a local Team 1K less than two months ago and we sat next to them in the 3-2 slot on day 1 (James Lu, very, very nice guy, and I sat right next to each other at that crucial point.) We had lost the turn before to their finals opponents. Feels weird.
Also, congrats to Theodore Jung on making Top 16 of the classic.
Last edited by redtwister; 05-06-2018 at 09:37 PM.
I saw on MTG gold fish that he was playing two : !!!!! SERRA ANGEL !!!!
Plz tell me it's a typo and it should be serra avenger :)
Serra Angel is anti-Fatal Push super secret tech ;)
Brimaz has a few advantages: it survives Bolt (which none of our main creatures do, except now Shalai), Vigilance is relevant on crowded boards, and making tokens can help on less crowded ones. These are each small advantages against different decks, as opposed to lining up all against one deck.
Against Miracles, I bring in two Cataclysm, two Canonist (to weaken Mentor and make Miracle-Terminus harder), a 3rd Recruiter (to grind, especially on Flickerwisp trains), and a Sword of War and Peace. I might play Leonin Relic-Warder and two Council's Judgment as well, depending on what permanents I expect. I pull my two Revokers first, plus some number of Moms and StP to make room; Mom mostly only thwarts their StP at a cost of more Terminus exposure, while StP is only good if I expect Mentor. If I'm still desperate for space, I'll cut non-disruptive ground-bound beaters: they may end the game faster, but they can potentially get walled by Mentor.
I for one think it would be sort of amazing if the iconic Angel saw play. Sadly, it's quite unlikely. Probably indeed an error outside any limited environment.
Cutting mom was great before conspiracy 2. Now, the possibility of Prelate + Mom makes you think twice. Of course, the portent ponderers always have a council's judgment handy the few times when I pull that off, so you might just want to always set prelate at 1 and grind out the termini, not hope for the miracle to come on your side. Cutting mom is particularly interesting because you don't really want to cut that much beyond revoker, crusader and a few plows. The latter two are not even that bad in the match-up.
Canonist is a troubling card in this match-up. It has an evident hosing effect against the deck, nerfing cantrips, snapcaster and mentor, very occasionally stifling a terminus trigger. But it's also terrible in combat, so more terminus fodder when you hold it back to avoid getting chumped by a snapcaster. I think I like Council's Judgment more. Council's can deal with the two most severe threats the deck can throw at us, mentor and jace, and post-side there's often a multitude of other targets as well - Back to Basics, Izzet Staticaster, Keranos, Containment Priest, Pithing Needle...
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