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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #6181
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It'll prevent some blow outs, but is probably no more than a speedbump in the face of Nettle Sentinel. And without Spirit Guides it comes down T3 at best. You sure that's such a good idea Elves? Even if you win G2, they're on the play G3.

    Kinda seems like The Danger Of Cool Things, as far as specifically Elves! is concerned. I think it'd do more work vs. Eldrazi. Screw haste, Reality Smasher!
    Proxy the card, Echelon. This card is going to redefine how opponents play against and sideboard against Death and Taxes because of the havoc it will bring to bear against manabases. What it does to Elves is the tip of the iceberg, but they are forced to play fair while the card is otb. This thing does to Elves what the original Thalia does to all other decks.

    Much to my annoyance, new players are going to refer to D+T as "Thalia.dec." or some similar obnoxiously uncreative name.
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  2. #6182
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    It's probably a wonderful card, but Elves! isn't where it shines most, that's all I'm saying. I'm also not saying it's bad vs. Elves!, I'm just saying that there are several MUs where it probably does a lot more work than vs. Elves!.

    So we're pretty much agreeing with eachother.

  3. #6183
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    It's definitely interesting, but I think the lands side of the effect is *far* more relevant than the creatures side, since even the basic-heavy decks like Burn/Miracles play a ton of fetches. The creature-side of the effect is not bad against Elves or Eldrazi and pretty strong against Sneak Attack, but Imposing Sovereign is not a very strong card on its own.

    I don't think anyone wants to play 4 copies of this card, but it's a legendary beater with a pretty legitimate taxation effect attached, seems like the real deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cwoj View Post
    I don't think imperial is interested but I could be wrong if she proves powerful enough on her own.
    Yeah it's unfortunate she's 3 power, still might be able to squeeze her in if she proves powerful enough, similar to Flickerwisp.

  4. #6184
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It'll prevent some blow outs, but is probably no more than a speedbump in the face of Nettle Sentinel. And without Spirit Guides it comes down T3 at best. You sure that's such a good idea Elves? Even if you win G2, they're on the play G3.

    Kinda seems like The Danger Of Cool Things, as far as specifically Elves! is concerned. I think it'd do more work vs. Eldrazi. Screw haste, Reality Smasher!
    idk, when you're Glimpsing through things you don't usually have tons of Nettle Sentinels. It's a bit of a pain if you can't use the played Elves to trigger Heritage, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  5. #6185
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    True, Zombie, but I am mostly thinking about the +x/+x for Craterhoof Behemoth. Elves would have to be way out ahead to manage to get lethal through even with a Nettle Sentinel around. I just don't fear a tapped Gurmag Angler nearly as much.

    Echelon, I know you meant that. I am just excited, and I was talking to myself as much as you. We are all taking the new card in and coming to grips with exactly what it can mean. Someone at wotc likes this deck.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  6. #6186
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    That was actually one of the reasons I originally built DnT, I noticed that Wizards was printing new hatebears fairly regularly so it seemed like the deck was going to only get stronger over time. Hatebears are fun from a design perspective, they let you print powerful effects that are still super easy to get rid of as long as your opponent decided to play any interactive cards in their deck.

  7. #6187

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    An early big thalia would be incredibe (fetches have suspend 1/ 2, wow). Might want to revisit finn's old imperial lists with acceleration (mox or ssg) for early thalias and magus.

    Will likely be too inconsistent and costly as only magus is a lock piece but the tempo generated might be enough.
    Who knows.

    Also team thalia is going to an insane force on the ground. "Sorry your angler can't attack unless you have a bolt AND the mana to cast it". I see serra avenger playing nicely with the big girl.

  8. #6188
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The more I think about this, the more skeptical I get actually. I think it's clearly not-unplayable, but it's probably close in power level to Wingmare overall - which I still like way more than more people, incidentally - and might not end up as an auto-include for everyone. It doesn't have the same downside (x/1) but the upside is also slightly lower. (T2 Thalia T3 Wingmare is almost impossible for a lot of Brainstorm decks to beat unless they have a direct answer.)

    T3 on the draw the land side of the effect has already lost a lot of its potency (they've had the chance to play 3 lands) - and the creature side of the effect is a bonus but not relevant for the majority of matchups. So - maybe a decent SB option when you're on the play and for games that are likely to go long? Karakasable, decent body, not an x/1...it has a lot going for it outside of the Kismet effect. I really like this vs Miracles, for example, even late game you get to Waste their high value fetches.

    But overall, the Kismet effect itself isn't stronger than the Ethersworn Canonist / Rule of Law effect (in fact I think it's a bit less powerful) and that effect hasn't been considered strong enough to include main in most metas. Even against Elves, this buys you a turn, possibly two, and means you don't lose to Craterhoof itself, but you still need to get a Jitte online since if they can build a board Craterhoof still kills you whether it attacks itself or not.

  9. #6189
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Calling it now - new Thalia is unplayable. Happy to be wrong, but I don't think it will make an impact at all and it screams of win more, like Kiki-Jiki does in Goblins.

    It costs 3 mana in a format that costs 1 on average and it does not attack from another angle, it's just more mana disruption except it's situational disruption and it comes down at a point when it's sort of too late. I am not saying it will be 100000% horrible all the time, but the times when it will be good will be in the matchups where we would already favoured (miracles, griselbrand derp combo decks etc).

    If I'm choosing between this or Mangara for my 3 drop slot (with Crusader not even being a candidate for being dropped), I'm choosing Mangara 100% of the time. If this card wasn't called Thalia x of y I doubt people would be making such commotion over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
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    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  10. #6190
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    There are going to be a lot of exasperated scoops the moment Thalia 2.0 hits the battlefield. This card makes Wasteland so much better. And fetching a nonbasic is going to be funny. So much so, that I predict manabases are going to have to get a bit less greedy across the board. Not only does this, in turn make Rishadan Port better also, but it makes those decks less consistent at being on-color with their lands. Even Brainstorm gets nerfed some, as shuffling the bad cards has an additional tax associated.

    More stuff:
    Sneak Attack becomes barely a card.
    It is a serious hoser for Lands in the main. Interestingly though, it is a soft hoser. I want to play this to see.
    It's butt is 2, not 1.
    Hah: Dredge. Flame-kin Zealot, Ichorid
    ...


    Wow, just saw the naysayers. I am happy to disagree. I am pretty sure this will be bonkers. I have faced Loxodon Gatekeeper often enough to know that the tight games that D+T seeks to create are disproportionately affected by this type of effect. It will be "yuge".
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  11. #6191
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It is a serious hoser for Lands in the main.
    Yea, my first thought too. When this comes out I think I might come play in your pool a while. This looks fucking sick fun.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  12. #6192
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The upside of this vs Lands is considerably lower than the upside of Magus of the Moon (win on the spot) - and just like Magus of the Moon it's not an auto-win because it's an x/2 for 3 and Punishing Fire is a card. Plus they can play and tutor a Karakas.

    Vs Dredge, Ichorid attacking matters less than Ichorid dying.

    It's pretty good in the mirror vs a Vial and as a big body, but suffers from the same 'other deck plays Karakas' weakness.

    Again, I think this 'is a card' and is legacy playable, but that it's more on the Ethersworn Canonist / Wingmare level and I am not sure it ends up an auto-include in the main.

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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Plus they can play and tutor a Karakas.
    The card seeing less and less play? Its also not in the main as much as it once was.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  14. #6194
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Well, were this to be a thing that increases their incentive to play Karakas. Like, let's say Dnt becomes an 7/8 Thalia deck - now who needs Punishing Fire, you have hands that just lose to a single opponent's Karakas, similar to Reanimator.

  15. #6195
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    While I'm excited that the new Thalia isn't overcosted garbage like pretty much every other new print of story characters, I'd wait and see how good she really is. 3 mana is still alot for an effect you want to have as early as possible.

    I don't think the Elves match-up is going to be impacted much. Less Dryad Arbor chump-blocking, might slow them down a bit, but at T3, we're either dead or likely on the way to stabilize and win.

    As for Finn's comment, it does indeed make Wasteland better. One of the more interesting aspects is killing their tapped fetch.

    I'd also wait and see how the potential SB synergy with Crackdown and Winter Orb plays out.

  16. #6196

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Having both Thalia in play sounds really, really fun. I'm excited.

  17. #6197
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    This is very, very good. I'm not excited to play against it at all.

    Time to actually add basic lands back into decks, otherwise you're playing fucking Modern, fetching EOT, and Citp tapped so you can do shit on your turn. Consider mixing new Thalia with, god forbid, Winter Orb.

  18. #6198

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Alrighty ladies and gentleman, I present to you, Thraben University: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/

    This site is currently under construction, but I hope that it will become the authoritative site for Legacy Death and Taxes in the years to come. As a teacher and judge, I am always seeking to educate. This site is a repository of the knowledge I’ve gained over the years by watching some of the greatest players pilot the deck, by discussing the deck on MtG:Salvation, and through my own play experiences. In particular, I’d like to thank Finn, creator of D&T, for allowing me to replicate and edit some of his content in various places across the website.

    I intend on producing some video content and eventually start streaming, but I am going to focus on generating written content for the website first. I do intend to write about things other than Legacy D&T from time to time, so expect to see an occasional article about my modern musings or my experiences judging. Once the skeleton of the site is complete, I’ll work on making things pretty and embedding more cool gadgets and pictures. I have zero formal training in html or anything of that ilk, so bear with me in the initial months of the website as I teach myself new things. I’m aware that the website menu doesn’t work great on mobile devices, and I’ll get that fixed asap. I also plan on greatly expanding the matchup section, hopefully adding another matchup every 1-2 weeks.
    -Phil Gallagher

  19. #6199
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Re: references to Sneak Attack, just a reminder that the Sneaked creature is sacrificed at the beginning of the next end step, so your opponent can activate it at the end of your turn, in order to attack with it on their next turn. It'll get the job done with Karakas though.

  20. #6200
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    That was actually one of the reasons I originally built DnT, I noticed that Wizards was printing new hatebears fairly regularly so it seemed like the deck was going to only get stronger over time. Hatebears are fun from a design perspective, they let you print powerful effects that are still super easy to get rid of as long as your opponent decided to play any interactive cards in their deck.
    Pretty much the same reason I put this deck together.

    Also... my $0.02 for new Thalia... she's taking my Mirran Crusader spots in the main. Period, end of story. I'll of course move Mirrans to the side, I love that guy. But she... she just... she's gonna wreck some decks without even offering lube.

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