[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Barook]

Pithing Needle for key cards is a nuisance. As is stuff like EE and Wear/Tear or more mass removal in general.

[Pans-Advocate]

Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental are both really nasty, and Needling Vial can force us to play the game Miracles wants to play, which is usually 50%+ in Mracles' favor. The last time I lost to a sideboard card out of Miracles, though, it was Keranos, God of Storms. That card can be very difficult to beat if it comes down against anything less than a board that threatens a 1-2 turn clock. Admittedly I have no idea whether it is good enough to be worth a slot in an open meta, but it's always seemed insane when it gets played against me.

[_erbs_]

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

[BearsandSquires]

[QUOTE=Bahra;821671]

Been trying 2 main deck council's judgements like bahra had discussed on stream and have come to like them though they can sometimes be awkward.

[Syntex]

In response to the mana denial plan it works rather well. When I test miracles vs my friends D&T deck he has no problems locking me out of white mana with wasteland on duals and ports on basics. This really lets him do more with vial as an EoT SFM into playing the equip with no real answer to it is a pain.


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[lordofthepit]

I don't have much experience with this deck, but I've tried a few Flagstones because I didn't have enough Beta Plains to run this deck. I think the negligible downsides slightly outweigh the (even more negligible) upsides, but if you even have one Pox player in your local meta, that might be enough to tip the balance.

[Pans-Advocate]

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

[Barook]

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.

[Barbed Blightning]

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.

You'll probably have to PM Finn about that

[_erbs_]

The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

Hello,
Thanks for the response, i've tried playing the current DT slightly modified, it felt more like a midrange white weenie of some sort.... the tricks are almost gone. Maybe its bec. of the list i ran thats why i felt it that way. Since im in the testing mode i made the deck like this.

Lands [23]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan ports
2 horizon canopy
3 karakas
10 plains

Spell [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 bskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

Creatures [26]
4 mother of runes
3 thalia
3 phyrexian revoker
2 spirit of the labyrinth
3 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
2 mirran crusader
1 brimaz
3 flickerwisp
2 aven mindcensor

the test was somewhat okay though i feel something is missing or im just not used to the new dt which plays more aggro over the one with 3 mangara.

some notes:
when your up against a slow deck or an opponent who runs brainstorm or dark confidant and he doesnt expect you to have spirit of the labyrinth and your line of play is MOM > labyrinth, its good the damage it provides seems fast enough for your other creatures to finish the game.. having that said at times revoker seem to be somewhat a weak card and the deck just dies to pyroclasm or any -1/-1 effects..

i know revoker is a very very good card as it could stop lots of cards like sensei top and liliana the most common targets, but without a way to clear the board they just stand at the back similar to what mom does.., labyrinth is almost similar but atleast it could kill a mongoose but thats irrelevant, i just feel the current list seems to lack the creature toughness as most of our creatures has a toughness as 1.

then when your opponent lands a sulfur elemental and you have no councils judgement or stp or somesort of removal , your deck just stop and die.

have you guys ever tested Ajani, Caller of the Pride or something similar, i know it would seem off forcing DT to play faster as DT is a control deck, but without the mangara lock and the changes of the legend rule, controlling your opponents board seems harder to do, before if your opponent has a jitte just play jitte to destroy it now a online jitte is problematic for DT.

i know my deck isnt the typical current DT but i feel its close enough to what the current is.

oh the 2 horizon canopy for me is nice as compared to flagstones

I was thinking maybe DT should play like a tempo game... and not control your opponent as to what it does before... ?? what do you think ?, White Tempo hahaha ??

[Barbed Blightning]

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Jungian Thing]

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

One short...Cage? SoLaS?

[Barbed Blightning]

One short...Cage? SoLaS?

Path to Exile or Sunlance, probably. Chalice and Sphere of Resistance are both viable options, though.

[Pans-Advocate]

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

[Barbed Blightning]

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

Honestly, the Miracles matchup is already pretty damn good preboard. Unlike most creature archetypes in Legacy, we have an abundance of creatures that can serve as a clock, and cards like Revoker and Mom can give the Miracles opponent a real headache (esp. if they are struggling to find a Terminus). Post board, I'd sooner cut my StPs and my Jitte for 2 Canonist (or 1/1 Canonist/Spirit), 2 Judgment, 1 Needle. Canonist/Spirit increases our density further and provides marginal disruption. Needle stops Top. Judgment deals with problematic bullshit like Humility, Moat, Ensaring Bridge, CB, JTMS, whathaveyou. Or vote for Top if they didn't save it.

As far as Manriki is concerned, you already have Council's Judgment, which is less narrow in application. The mirror is the only matchup where MG is strictly better but even then you want to be addressing your opponents threats with more removal and shutting down their Vial especially if you do not have one of your own.

Ratchet Bomb has some merit as a Tutor target and is good vs Miracles as an out to Angel tokens. However I fail to see the overall use. Beyond maybe Elves and Belcher, I don't know when I'd ever want to bring in the card. It just does not feel like a Legacy card to me--this coming from someone playing a deck of atypical Legacy cards to begin with.

I think I will shave a tutor for more business, resulting in the following SB:

2 RIP
2 Liege
2 Canonist
2 Judgment
1 Tutor
1 Spirit
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 CoP: Red
1 Cursed Totem/Ensnaring Bridge
1 Path to Exile

My main deck will look something akin to this:

4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Wisp
3 Avenger
2 Crusader
1 Mindcensor
1 Spirit

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

[Plague Sliver]

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up? Is there something better than Spirit + Canonist, or the controversial black splash?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Barbed Blightning]

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

I'll try my best to answer your questions; also, welcome to the community! Much like Storm or Goblins, D&T features a dedicated community of players each pushing the archetype forward. Most of them are active on the Salvation thread. However there are plenty Sourcers who I am sure will be more than willing to give tips, advice or any other guidance.

So! The questions.

1) There are thing you can do to improve the matchup but, unlike most matchups, there is no one good hate card. I am partial to gravedigger's cage. It hits GSZ and NO while also serving as decent hate against flashback/dredge. Ethersworn Canonist does a lot of work; chalice of the void is rarer but more of a hoser. Maindeck Aven Mindcensor is a decent enough hatebear, though not comparable to say Thalia vs Storm. Revoker should name Heritage Druid is proactively cast. Obviously he can hit anything in your way (Symbiote, etc).

Elves is a matchup that is bad but can be made better with tight play and trusting developed instincts. I have beaten them with Thalia before because then could not cast NO. I recommend play testing extensively, especially with a human opponent.

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.

3. MBT is problematic for me because it is ONLY good vs fast sequence combo and, even then, it's not particularly great. Most of the time we want to advance our board state with each creature providing a new wall of the prison we keep our opponent in. MBT, while an answer to a certain condition of the game, does not serve our prison plan. It can create a false sense of security, sitting in your hand only to be therapied away before the Tendrils/NO or baited out only for another dagger to be produced. Yes it can get us to turn two in theory, but it's the same thinking that keeps Leyline of Sanctity in SneakShow sideboards--except that that deck has a much different style of play.

Judge's Familiar comes to mind if you're looking for turn one hate. However I find that we often have enough time to slam a Thalia before they assemble their pieces.

If you have a list or any other questions, please feel free to share them!

[Plague Sliver]

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.

Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.

[Barbed Blightning]

Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.

Brimaz fulfills the beatstick/combat disruption role. Although he appears vanilla, against creature deck and even Tempo he is a scary card as he makes attacking prohibitive and blocking difficult. Also, in terms of raw damage output vs combo/control, he's faster than Crusader--supposing you count the Simba tokens. However he is not necessary.

Here's a basic 60 I'd start with:

10 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

Sideboard is tailored to the meta; however, this is reasonable for an Open/large event:

2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 Judgment
2 Cataclysm
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 Path to Exile

[ironclad8690]

My buddy Colin Logan just took down SCG Kansas City with this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70522

4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Meekstone
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Cataclysm

There will be good coverage of him vs Lands, BUG Delver, and a finals match vs RUG Delver.