You don't beat blue control decks by replacing your cards with half a card. Relic is good for sure, if you play one, but RiP is not.
Really? I actually kind of like this play against decks with Liliana - like Jund. You are commonly left with only Mother of Runes and the games run long, so it happens with some frequency. Your power play is to attack (untapped) and then give protection. Before blocks, after. Whatever you need.Originally Posted by J ♥ 5
Actually, I think I have only ever done it against Jund.
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From the Miracles side, absolutely not. If you're spending a card and two mana (on a non-creature for that matter) I'd be thrilled. Search isn't at its best in the matchup anyway, and Snaps are nice, but not a death knell losing them.
Concerning RiP: That was my impression as well. I boarded it in a few times to try it out, as a list I was trying was short on board cards.
Unrelated, here's a holiday article with all sorts of weird stuff from MTGO!
It was a pleasure to face you twice on MTGO man. Pretty nice games!
By the way, I do not feel that worse the matchup vs 4C Loam. I usually beat them with the 4 x Mirran Crusader version. My sideboard is quite good against them as well.
As for the rest of the matchups you consider as 'hard to beat', I think you need a second Sanctum Prelate in your 75. With her I usually do not find problems vs Lands and OmniSneak, even I find them as nice matchups. The pair of Palace Jailer I run helps as well.
Overall I think you could do a better use of those sideboard slots, because I do not think Surgicals are super necessary these days. BR Reanimator fell in popularity enough to not run them, and even with them you can be crushed anyway... I think the correct way to approach this kind of matchups is to think that if you can play magic you're gonna win because they are super bad out of their linear plan.
I do not think is a great scenario trying to stop holdups of decks that are not a big portion of the field by reducing utility slots for other matchups that you have to win and you have more options to do so and without depending of drawing specific hate.
And for that I do not see a lot for matchups like BR Reanimator, Dredge, Belcher, Elves and so when building a sideboard. I do not think it is worth. I only dedicate slots for them when I really like their function in other matchups I want to focus on and the plan they offer is good.
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@Koke_MTG
That last match we played was pretty nuts. I still don't believe I got that game one by holding the ground with Mom and Thalia for like 10 turns...
I agree that Surgical is falling out of favor. I think I'm more or less wanting a 3rd Rest in Peace in the 75. It just feels so good against most of the format right now. A second Prelate or a Leonin Relic-Warder would be good inclusions in those slots as well. I also wonder if the Crusader version should be playing a 24th land. The deck is heavy on WW cards in both the main and sideboard, and it's pretty easy to win most games where you don't get stuck on mana.
On the note of utility, I've actually been playing around with a RW build to gather some data on how it performs vs the Crusader build. I took Bahra's list from a 5-0 awhile back and incorporated a few elements I liked from Iatee's lists. It approaches some matchup differently, but has a ton of things going for it. Once I get to 100 matches or so, I'll do a big write up of my thoughts.
Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windsweapt Heath
Creatures
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Palace Jailer
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Cataclysm
This list from "Egget" 5-0'd on MTGO a couple days back.
Any thoughts on the maindeck Relic of Progenitus?
I think I like it more than the maindeck Rest in Peace I've seen a little bit recently.
Upsides: 9th/13th potential turn 1 play (depending on how you view Swords to Plowshares), GY hate is effective (though perhaps not always good/great) against the majority of top tier decks, can cycle for another card if it's dead, opens up a bit more room for sideboard cards to come in more easily in some matchups.
Downsides: Dead against decks that don't use the graveyard. The floor is a 3 mana cycle if Thalia's on the board. It's not a creature that helps win the game. Can be low impact against GY heavy decks.
Maindeck:
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace
I am currently testing the Judge's Familiar List and I made two 5-0 in Competetive Leagues in a row.
Decklist:
Artefacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
Creatures
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Palace Jailer
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace
This Deck is a bit more havier than the classical Bird List, as it still has 2 Mirran Crusader (very good Card in the Meta) in the Main. The real benefit from the Judge's Famliar is that you are stronger against spell oriented Decks and have a decent chance against fast Combo Decks like Reanimator, Storm, Belcher and it improves the chances against Delver Strategies in Game 1 to dodge random Force of Wills and Dazes. If you have Turn 1 Bird and Turn 2 Thalia almost no Combo Deck can kill you without the nutiest of Nut Draws. I really like the Bird because it also improves the chances to dodge a Kolaghan's Command from Control Decks long enough until you can Wasteland them out or protect it with a Flickerwisp. On top of it, it is a great Creature to equip and it's not that easy to block it, especially not with TNN.
I am thinking about going down to 22 Lands because I cut the Palace Jailer from the Maindeck, but maybe we have to change the Batterskull with another Sword for the Sideboard for that as well. What do you think about the 22 Lands with the smaller Creature Base?
I do not think it's a good Relic and other cards that get targeted at the player with Leovold en masse on this metagane
@Moctzal
We are at the point where maindeck graveyard hate is reasonable. I'm playing maindeck RiP at this point and am 100% on board with it. Of the 22 times I have drawn it in game 1, it has only been dead 3 times. It often surprises me with its relevance in places where I thought it would do nothing. For example, I played a match against Eldrazi where it blanked two triggers from Matter Reshapers. You also just mise a ton of wins by having it when you get paired against things like Lands, Dredge, and Reanimator.
@EronRelentless
I like going up a Crusader in that build; aggressive opposing threats like Goyf were a problem when I played my version. For similar reasons, I'm not sure that you can cut the Batterskull.
It's reasonable to go down a land in that build, but if you do so, it might be time to streamline the sideboard as well. In the more fair matches where you'd want to board in Gideon and Council's Judgment (increasing the average cmc of your deck quite a bit), you'll probably notice the loss of that land over time. At that point, you might want to consider changes like Leonin Relic-Warder or Disenchant over Council's Judgment. I also played a miser's Orzhov Pontiff in my build off two Caverns and Scrubland and quite liked it.
Indeed you are right, did not think about the SB while planning for the lower Land count. We obviously need to trim or even cut Gideon then.
Another question for me is, which Sword fits more into my Deck.
Sword of Light and Shadow can has more synergies with the Bird and ETB effects, but maybe with the rise of Miracles the War and Peace is the better Sword at the moment and Mirran Crusader with it can end Games with one attack.
In my opinion DnT profits a lot from the rise of Miracles and maybe we need to plan more for the mirror Matches in the next few months.
Which Sword do you like more for the DnT Mirror?
@EronRelentless
SoWaP is hands down a better card in the mirror and I like having it around with Miracles picking up steam. I'm not sure how much the SoLaS and Judge's Familiar synergy matters. By the time we get SoLaS online (turn 4 minimum, likely later more realistically), is recurring Judge's Familiar still important? In the context of matches where you would bring in SoLaS (e.g. mirror, Miracles, Maverick, Stoneblade, Czech), I'm sort of hoping that I have better things to be doing.
I think Nu-Miracles is actually pretty strong vs vanilla DnT. Search for Azcanta is good against mana denial, since it both lets them hit their land drops and then actually ramps them, which feels somehow unjust. Playing fewer Counterbalance means they don't have as many dead cards g1 and you don't get the free g2/3s from people who didn't sideboard them out. Revoker is less of a powerhouse since it does nothing early and it's now just a card that reads 'That JTMS can't be activated...please don't have a STP'.
I think d&t is a very hard mu for miracles; I play both decks and the mu is easy 60/40 for d&t
It will be. I think it is in progress on both sides according to the player. Callum Smith in her guide on the New Miracles sets the game off as just avoiding the Vial and Mother + Prelate in 6. In my little experience is balanced. In some games, they have everything as answers.
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I think DnT is an extremely favourable matchup for Miracles, in fact it's one of the best.
Well I think the Matchup against Miracles is pretty even, depending on the players it's 40:60 or 60:40 kind of.
What I meant is not that it's a very good Matchup or so, but the result of the Metagame is good for DnT, for example there are a lot less Elves we see theses days and the Metagame is more clear than before with many 5-8 % Decks.
Yesterday I also piloted the Judge's Familiar List i've posted very successful in the Legacy Challenge with a Game Win Rate of 81% after Swiss Rounds, only lost to Dredge after Mulligans to 5 in both post board Games with a timely Therapy for my RiP and to Burn in the Semifinals. Unfortunately I was playing around Smash the Smithereens when he had 3 Cards in hand and did nothing with my Jitte in my hand. Don't know what was coming into my mind, but I was quite to slow and he did not had a single Smash, instead he had several Fireblasts and a Sulfuric Vortex, in the end I was just 1 Turn too slow. Could have won easy with my Jitte though, but tried without and failed.
The Bird was very good against 4C Control Decks as well. A couple times he did not had the Mana to cast Kolaghan's Command or Toxic Deluge with a Thalia in play. I am very confidant with my List at the moment, but it cripples more to Dread of Night than Stock Lists, but we do not see it in a lot of Sideboards these days.
I was wondering why have a lot of the mono white list dropped Horizon Canopy?
I am not sure if this is the right move as well. With Miracles and 4C Control there are two grindy Matchups on the top Tier of the Meta and it should be reasonable to play Canopy or even Mishra's Factory in that slot.
Been absent here playing Miracles for the past 6 weeks. It’s been a nice change of pace and the deck is fun as hell. Didn’t even know that it was gonna become a DTB, but it’s cool nonetheless. Just dropping in to give my two cents on things.
1) Miracles is favored in the matchups all things equal. Played both decks in the matchup. Felt unfavored playing DNt and was worried that when playing miracles I would lose or play poorly. However I also crushed DNt in the matchup. There’s too many answers and a good miracles player should win in my opinion. SoWaP changes things postbosrd, but not enough.
2) Maindeck R.I.P. guys?... really?
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