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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9901

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    "I don't think Maverick is better. It is now actively worse than DnT without DRS (I think it was already worse, but this is another hit.)"

    Maverick was tier 1 before DRS. Knight, Thalia, Wasteland, Ramunap Excavator all get better, and one of it's great matchups (RUG Delver) seems like it's going to be popular for a while.
    I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

    Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

    Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

    Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

    Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

    Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.

  2. #9902

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

    Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

    Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

    Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

    Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

    Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.

    Miracles was ultimately what killed maverick but one of the reason it has trouble even with miracles being weaker is that deathrite piles had a similar midrangey gameplan but just worked better.

    Not that I necessarily think maverick is in a better spot now. I remain unconvinced as long as TNN exists since it can stonewall a fast start.

  3. #9903

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Certainly, sir.


    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Stalking Leonin
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Eldrazi Displacer
    3 Sanctum Prelate
    3 Serra Avenger
    2 Benalish Marshal
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
    1 Mangara of Corondor

    4 Aether Vial
    2 Honor of the Pure
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    12 Plains
    4 Karakas
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland


    3 Mother of Runes
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Remorseful Cleric
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Cloudchaser Kestrel


    I'm considering one or two Brightling, and possibly some number of Relic-Warders, but beyond that I'm very happy with it. Recruiters can fetch Wisp, Thalia, Prelate, Crusader, Mangara, and anything off the sideboard save Gideon. More often than not, they either go for Mangara or Wisp, but sometimes Prelate is very necessary. People still fear Mangara lock like it's The Plague, and I'll be more than happy to exile their weak and unstable manabase from behind a wall of Leonins.

    Most of you, I imagine, are going to bemoan the lack of spot removal, maximum Karakas, and probably even the lack of Stoneforge. Mom off the board is a little weird too, I'll admit.

    The only utility land I'd consider is Horizon Canopy, the green for Shalai's activation and the card draw seem very good. I don't think Caverns are as necessary as they once were. Having extra Karakas is rarely a liability, and getting them on the table usually results in audible groans from Reanimator/Sneak Show/Depths. I don't miss Stoneforge at all, honestly, it was at its best vs something like Merfolk that couldn't beat it nor deal with it. With the impending resurgence of Thresh as 'The Delver Deck' just one of the global pump effects will be nice, turning my army of 3/3 into a force of 4/4, rendering Mongeese and True-Names mostly irrelevant on the defense. Even an opposing Jitte gets mitigated by running larger dudes. Displacer can take over the board by reusing Wisp and Leonin, generate card advantage with Recruiter, protecting Shalai from removal, tapping down potential blockers, and performs the Karakas role with Mangara. Kestrel I originally included when everyone splashing black had 2 Dread of Night in their board and it turned out to also be good against a host of other decks, notably Lands, Burn, and Sneak Show. The rest of the cards I think have either obvious applications or have been discussed multiple times already.
    I think that is an interesting list, but yeah, that deck bears very little resemblance to anything I'd associate with DnT. It definitely boasts some interesting disruptive elements, but seems pretty all-in on blink tricks. That's a bit too specialized for me, and I don't think I'd be willing to surrender the versatile suite offered by more typical builds for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    I'm not sure that saying Maverick was Tier 1 6 years ago means very much.

    Also, I don't think DRS hurt them that much if they played 3-4 themselves. It is unlikely that by itself is what demoted Maverick, but maybe someone has convincing proof that it was DRS that did it in.

    Sure, they have gained Ramunap Excavator and Tireless Tracker, but that seems to be about it, unless I am missing something huge? They did try Leovold in recent iterations, but that's not gonna happen now and being more than 3 colors is going to get much harder as they will rely on Noble Hierarch and maybe the 1-of BoP. So they go to 4/1 or 4/2 Noble/BoP, which is a loss of quite a bit of power, but without any really new cards.

    Reanimator, Lands, and Dredge are going to have a target on their heads, which means RiP/RoP increase, which is bad for Maverick and I don't imagine those decks are easy for Maverick. Since they don't run RiP like we do, I think they won't get the advantage we get against those decks.

    Relative to DnT, I think we get comparatively stronger than they do while also getting the RUG Delver free roll. Therefore, relative to us, I think Maverick gets worse.

    Now, 3 months out, who can say? 5-6 years of DRS actively played in many decks (unlike Top, which was key in effectively one deck) means this is going to create a big shockwave that won't sort itself out even without new cards for several months, over a lot of gameplay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Umezete View Post
    Miracles was ultimately what killed maverick but one of the reason it has trouble even with miracles being weaker is that deathrite piles had a similar midrangey gameplan but just worked better.

    Not that I necessarily think maverick is in a better spot now. I remain unconvinced as long as TNN exists since it can stonewall a fast start.
    I don't think TNN matters all that much to a deck that can readily drop 3-mana 8/8s. DnT has unquestionably gotten better, and may have gotten better relative to Maverick. What will determine Maverick's success is the proportion of the metagame that is unfair/combo or some sort of heavy-control, like Miracles. If those numbers are high, Maverick may struggle. If they're low, they might even outperform DnT.

  4. #9904
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Have we had a proper discussion about Stalking Leonin? It looks like a powerful card in a control deck with Flickerwisps. I can see savvy opponents try to get weasally with the mechanic though.
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  5. #9905
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    A "proper" discussion: I don't think so, but the card is obviously strong, and has been mentioned a few times. I think Stalking Leonin would really be able to shine in a "Big D&T"-style list with Restoration Angel to top the curve. DRS being gone implies that more decks will have to win via combat, too, so its ability has become stronger due to the B&R update. Now if only it could handle True-Name Nemesis :/

  6. #9906

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Brightling buy-out in Europe just happening, interesting...

  7. #9907

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
    Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
    The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.

  8. #9908
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    So I did not really feel confident enough to test these new post-ban waters with my present "primary" deck (UR Noughty Painter), but resorted to ye olde D&T for tonight's Legacy FNM. It turned outa decent choice; I finished 4-0, beating UR Delver (2-0), Mono Red Storm (2-0), Durch Staxx (2-1), and Grixis Superfriends/Walker Control (really more like UB with very little R; 2-1).

    My usual, unadapted 61 that I piloted today:


    3 Flickerwisp
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Stonecloaker
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
    1 Epochrasite
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Sanctum Prelate

    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    3 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas
    4 Rishadan Port
    9 Plains


    And I brought this yet unoptimized sideboard (I'm quite sure there is a need for more inevitable and faster graveyard interaction to compete on a larger scale):


    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Stillmoon Cavalier
    2 Sanctum Prelate

    1 Crackdown
    1 Path to Exile
    2 Cataclysm
    3 Council's Judgement
    3 Rest in Peace


    MVP in terms of creatures of the day was Sanctum Prelate, shutting down opponents' engines like a champ. Having up to 3 copies post-board is a potent cure to the cantrip disease that the format has become. I was also VERY happy with Epochrasite - I only lived the dream to vial it in once (to gobble up a 3/4 Monastery Swiftspear), but its constant, hasty return after three counters have had time to evaporate is just awesome. Other noteworthy things: Stillmoon Cavalier is nuts against suitable opponents, and I can highly recommend pairing it with Sword of Fire and Ice :D Also, you should really check out Knight of the Holy Nimbus. This little guy seems so insignificant, but Flanking and its regeneration shield-induced resilience are really uniquely useful abilities against deck that do run True-Name Nemesis, but skip White for removal.

    Craziest situation/game of the day was G2 versus Mono R Storm. Me on the draw, drawing 2 Vial, Cavern of Souls, Plains, Swords to Plowshares (I left in a two copies because I was afraid of my opponent turning to a Goblin Rabblemaster-esque plan), Wasteland, and Orzhov Pontiff, which I decided to keep, expecting the usual Empty the Warrens "fun". My opponent went off turn 1, creating 14 Tokens on the back of the R suite of mana acceleration spells and a Helm of Awakening, then passing. I play Plains, cast two Vials for free, pass the turn. He is hellbent, draws a card, attacks for 14, and drops his topdecked Mountain. I draw Revoker, play Cavern, cast Orzhov Pontiff for WB, clearing his board. In the end, a Jitte-equipped Revoker brought it home :)

    I did see a pair of Brightlings in action on other tables, and I'll try to run two myself. Very strong card, even on its own.

  9. #9909

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigi85 View Post
    Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
    Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
    The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.

    I adore karn but we have like 9-10 artifacts so color me skeptic of playing it here. Gideon is prob better.

  10. #9910
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Hello Everyone!
    Rejoice, the end of DRS & Git Probe. It feels nice.
    Kudos to DarthVicious for piloting a unique list.
    Stalking Leonin had flown completely under my radar.
    Just picked up a couple.
    I've been playing Karn in the board for a few weeks, and I think the construct might be the best ability, but randomly drawing more Plains will be good next to Brightling.

    For the 24th land, I've been thinking that flooded strand makes a lot of sense. Has anyone else considered running a fetch?

  11. #9911
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    A miser fetchland? What for? I'd rather have a singleton Flagstones of Trokair. Less vulnerable to Stifle, equally bad under Blood Moon effects, marginally worse against Wasteland, but awesome in case you board in Cataclysm.

  12. #9912
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyres View Post
    Brightling buy-out in Europe just happening, interesting...
    Happened in US yesterday as well. $6 in the morning, $16-$20 in the evening. I'm sure it'll settle down around $10 or $12...or at least I hope.

    She's good, although I don't know if I want more than two. Finally had a chance to play her last night and she stonewalled a TNN. Opponent got in one attack, I swung back with lifelink. Next 10+ turns the opponent refused to attack

  13. #9913

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    What is up with "all" the 61 Cards Maindeck lists? Can someone argue positive for the 61th card? I just dont see why, am I missing something?

  14. #9914

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The partial percentage point against slot 61 isn't enough for me to want to drop the 26th creature for the 24th land, therefore I play the 61st slot.

  15. #9915
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigi85 View Post
    Just in time to buy 2 of them with 8€!!
    Does anyone have try Karn Scion of Urza? I’m testing it in my sideboard, and every abilities is value for the deck.
    The token could became huge with our artifacts and the card advantage engine is what we miss in control matchup.
    The question is, what makes him better than Gideon? Gideon also doubles as a protection spell against Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night, cards that should soon be seen in sideboards.

    On a sidenote, I played 2 leagues since the bannings and 5-0'd both of them on MTGO. I'm on a very old list though, I have yet to try Brightling (it's still not really available on MTGO).
    Deck feels like gas again finally.
    Team SPOD
    <Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
    Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)

  16. #9916
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

    Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
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  17. #9917
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

    Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.
    Brightling seems like an option if you don't want to play Mirran Crusader or Brimaz. I think Brightling is comparable to Brimaz in that it is very capable of racing True Name Nemesis and bounces back against removal and sweepers (you'll need Karakas with Brimaz, though).

    What I'd like about Brightling so far is that it also does a great job against Red Prison/Dragon Stompy. One Ensnaring Bridge is usually beatable, but multiples are super annoying. And chances are that you are flooded with Plains and Mountains in that matchup anyway and can sink in some mana to attack though Ensnaring Bridge. It also doesn't drop dead against Fiery Confluence or Kozilek's Return.

    I can imagine playing Brightling over Mirran Crusader given how often I side him out at the moment. I have the impression that the metagame will now shift towards red again and Lightning Bolt will see more play than Fatal Push again.

    On a sidenote, I got published, so here's the list for the curious people: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1183681#paper
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  18. #9918

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Brightling is a bit like DRS, actually in that it just has a lot of different pertinent abilities on an aggressively priced body, chief among them is how hard it is to kill even with sweepers.

    Also, what are you all siding in for Miracles now? That deck is bound to see some increased action now.
    I Like to get in my additional piece of equipment (SoWaP most likely), 2 Council's Judgement, 2 Cataclysm or Gideon and even 2 Eterswon Canonist.

    Im not a Fan of Mother of Runes in this MU, especially after game 1 so I board all 4 of them out. Im always keeping at least 2 Swords even if I didnt saw Mentor, if my oppo already played Mentor G1 I tend to even keep 3 Swords. Depending on my Maindeck I tend to board out some generic beaters like Crusader.

    My guess is that Miracles will lean towards 3 Counterbalance in the Maindeck which should be good for DnT players. We will see how this MU is going to evolve, but this is one of the more special one I guess.

  19. #9919
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    What? Mother of Runes and not overcommitting threats onto the battlefield are pretty much the key in winning the Miracles matchup. At least they were when Top was still legal. I'm fairly certain you're doing it wrong if you board her out.

  20. #9920

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    What? Mother of Runes and not overcommitting threats onto the battlefield are pretty much the key in winning the Miracles matchup. At least they were when Top was still legal. I'm fairly certain you're doing it wrong if you board her out.
    True. Overcommitting threats is only an option with Prelate on 6 and a Mom to protect it.
    Pox -- Miracles -- Lands -- Candelabra Enchantress -- Dragon Stompy -- Eldrazi Stompy -- Sultai Control

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