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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #10121

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Koke_MTG View Post
    I'm also still bringing in Rest in Peaces against Grixis Control without doubt. It's great making them going worse in terms of card advantage and it's irremovable for them except by random EE.

    Card advantage is the fact that deck does best and at the same time is terrifying for us and untenable in long term. It's also a deck much much slower than in the DRS era in terms of win the game, so with RiP you're gaining time to recover from their card advantage and invalidating the best threat in terms of a real clock that is Gurmag Angler. Also they play their cantrips with other objects like shuffle away useless cards instead of the usual use of them... Overall, I feel pretty safe if I see a Rest in Peace early vs Grixis Control because it's a card that allows me to base the game on its effect.

    On the other hand I don't understand how are you worrying about the Miracles matchup guys. I think nowadays is one of our best ones, or at least in my experience is the best one in relation of "win rate - deck that sees a lot of play". I'm 30-11 in MTGO rounds since SDT ban and specifically 8-2 since DRS ban.

    I wouldn't bring in Rest in Peace here, I think it is a bad card because it does nothing quite impactful once you drop it and it's gonna depend on your opponent to get some kind of value of it, and that's quite bad.

    And for the Death's Shadow thread I wouldn't worry about it so much given that's an excellent matchup no matter the specific cards they're dedicating for D&T. Same for specific hate cards that we could eat in other matchups... D&T is a deck easily hateable. I think it's better to assume that and live with it. It's hard to be a deck that defines the format for so long because of that. So if you obsess countering those hateful effects you're gonna lose effectiveness by doing what has made you good, and definitely you become worse also by your deckbuilding merits IMO. Generally speaking obviously, not referring to close LGS metagames or so.
    How does your sideboard look right now and how do you board against Miracles?

    Right now I bring in 2x Gideon, 2x Council's Judgment, 1x Prelate, 1x Sword of War and Peace. I board out 4x Swords to Plowshares and 2x Mother of Runes. Taking out all STP makes losing to Mentor a real possibility and I'm seriously considering going up to 3x Council's Judgment in my sideboard just for this stupid matchup.

  2. #10122
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    How does your sideboard look right now and how do you board against Miracles?

    Right now I bring in 2x Gideon, 2x Council's Judgment, 1x Prelate, 1x Sword of War and Peace. I board out 4x Swords to Plowshares and 2x Mother of Runes. Taking out all STP makes losing to Mentor a real possibility and I'm seriously considering going up to 3x Council's Judgment in my sideboard just for this stupid matchup.
    This is the last version I'm testing and with which I am very happy:



    The list has a ton of solutions against a deck like Miracles, maybe a bit more than normal IDK... But I'm prone to play these kinds of lists, I suppose due to my play style. But anyway, I think the MU is good apart from this concrete list.

    Usually my plan against them is:

    +1 x Oblivion Ring
    +2 x Council's Judgment
    +2 x Cataclysm
    +1 x Palace Jailer
    +1 x Sanctum Prelate
    -1 x Mother of Runes
    -1 x Phyrexian Revoker
    -1 x Mirran Crusader
    -3 x Swords to Plowshares
    -1 x Umezawa's Jitte

    This is the standard I use, but for example against a Mentor heavy version, like Daze one, I use to keep in another Swords to Plowshares. The singleton I'm keeping in is, apart to an efficient answer to Monastery Mentor, to secure the crown when needed against flasy creatures at instant speed. I'm happy spending a slot there in exchange of more semi-free wins with Palace Jailer mechanic.

    On the other hand, I think to beat Miracles Cataclysm is generally better doing the function you're looking for than Gideon and SoWaP IMO. Let's say that Gideon is good most of the times maintaining his value quite high, it's fine, while Cataclysm in the right moment is gonna win you the game on the spot played correctly, it's quite absurd. It's exactly what I want here, a game-shaker that changes the dynamic of the game. SoWaP I think is worse because, although the protection is quite valuable, you're not attacking your opponent from other angles which are the best things about the others, they give you inevitability, and also SoWaP is easier to remove.

    In addition, I've tested 3 x Council's Judgment versions of the deck, it's not crazyness. It's, by far, the card you board in the most. According to my SB plans I think I always bring them in except against Storm and Dredge, not sure if I'm leaving something more...
    In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except DEATH & TAXES

  3. #10123

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Koke_MTG View Post
    In addition, I've tested 3 x Council's Judgment versions of the deck, it's not crazyness. It's, by far, the card you board in the most. According to my SB plans I think I always bring them in except against Storm and Dredge, not sure if I'm leaving something more...
    Burn, infect, lands, elves. It is the card you board in the most, but it's also a card you tend to want to see one copy of and no more.

  4. #10124

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Palace Jailer can be a trap vs Miracles. Bad Miracles players lose to it, but a good one will just get the Monarch and run away with the game. I love Jailer, bit I‘d board him out versus decent players.

  5. #10125

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    Do people bring Rest in Peace in against Grixis Control? If Accumulated Knowledge Miracles becomes the de-facto build, is Rest in Peace something we bring in against them too?

    Snapcaster is such a dumb card.
    RiP is still worthwhile against Grixis Control. While the card itself doesn't technically do anything immediate to the board state, it dramatically lowers or negates the value of subsequent K. Commands, Snapcasters, and Anglers.

    It's not nearly as good against Miracles, however. Trading one card for shutting off Snapcaster is not great, and even adding AK to the mix it's not really strong enough to justify it. Surgical Extraction is actually better here since it can also potentially knock cards out of hand and effectively counter second-or-later Terminus, but it's still kinda marginal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    I feel you. Miracles has been terrible since the ban for us and I agree Grixis is poor too. I feel like the answer is play more hard to answer or card advantage threats and be the aggressor posing them questions. Trying to react to what they’re doing is a losing battle.
    Grixis is unfavorable if they get going, but they're not unwinnable by any stretch. We also get a lot of non-game wins these days when the mana-denial part of our deck just does its thing. This match is fairly close to 50-50 these days. It just feels bad since the games that go longer and more unpleasantly are most memorable.

    Miracles also isn't nearly so bad, especially if you have 2-3 Brightling and/or Cataclysm in your 75.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koke_MTG View Post
    This is the last version I'm testing and with which I am very happy:



    The list has a ton of solutions against a deck like Miracles, maybe a bit more than normal IDK... But I'm prone to play these kinds of lists, I suppose due to my play style. But anyway, I think the MU is good apart from this concrete list.

    Usually my plan against them is:

    +1 x Oblivion Ring
    +2 x Council's Judgment
    +2 x Cataclysm
    +1 x Palace Jailer
    +1 x Sanctum Prelate
    -1 x Mother of Runes
    -1 x Phyrexian Revoker
    -1 x Mirran Crusader
    -3 x Swords to Plowshares
    -1 x Umezawa's Jitte

    This is the standard I use, but for example against a Mentor heavy version, like Daze one, I use to keep in another Swords to Plowshares. The singleton I'm keeping in is, apart to an efficient answer to Monastery Mentor, to secure the crown when needed against flasy creatures at instant speed. I'm happy spending a slot there in exchange of more semi-free wins with Palace Jailer mechanic.

    On the other hand, I think to beat Miracles Cataclysm is generally better doing the function you're looking for than Gideon and SoWaP IMO. Let's say that Gideon is good most of the times maintaining his value quite high, it's fine, while Cataclysm in the right moment is gonna win you the game on the spot played correctly, it's quite absurd. It's exactly what I want here, a game-shaker that changes the dynamic of the game. SoWaP I think is worse because, although the protection is quite valuable, you're not attacking your opponent from other angles which are the best things about the others, they give you inevitability, and also SoWaP is easier to remove.

    In addition, I've tested 3 x Council's Judgment versions of the deck, it's not crazyness. It's, by far, the card you board in the most. According to my SB plans I think I always bring them in except against Storm and Dredge, not sure if I'm leaving something more...
    I like a lot of what I see here, even if I'm not as high on Palace Jailer. With 2 each Brightling, Cataclysm, and Prelate, this deck looks very well suited to fight Miracles. My only concern is that it might be a bit softer to some of the black decks out there, but it's not weak by any stretch.

    I tend to agree with keeping in 1-2 StP against Mentor or Priest (which can deny Recruiter value, and is worth answering). Jailer just increases the utility there. I also tend to like SoWaP, but you're right that it's not as powerful as the alternatives against Miracles. It's more useful in that it has value against many other decks, especially the mirror.

    While I don't quite bring in CJ that much, it is definitely one of my top SB cards. In fact, in my scoring table, it often rates higher than many main-deck mainstays. I also agree that the 3rd isn't crazy, but I've also decided Ob. Ring is good in 80% of the same situations and is a great card to have against SnT decks. I think I'd play a copy of that before the 3rd CJ, which you appear to also be doing.

  6. #10126
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Hi @ll,

    What do you guys think about the Grixis Control matchup? I played some matches against a friend of mine and it felt pretty unwinnable. Grixis Control almost always managed to recover from early hatebears and closed the games with JTMS. And even after sideboarding where I bring in things like RIP, Canonist, Disenchant, Relic-Warder, Gideon the matchup doesn´t feel better (even more creature hate from Grixis). Hard mana denial plan with early Wastelands could steal me one or two games but that’s it.

    I played this list

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1213698#online

    with 2 Brightlings instead of Serra Avenger and Disenchant instead of Benalish Marshal

    Any thoughts about the matchup?

  7. #10127

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I’m not looking to get in an argument. All I’ll say is that if you believe miracles to be anything better than unfavorable, you are probably playing against bad miracles players.

  8. #10128

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Diamond View Post
    Hi @ll,

    What do you guys think about the Grixis Control matchup? I played some matches against a friend of mine and it felt pretty unwinnable. Grixis Control almost always managed to recover from early hatebears and closed the games with JTMS. And even after sideboarding where I bring in things like RIP, Canonist, Disenchant, Relic-Warder, Gideon the matchup doesn´t feel better (even more creature hate from Grixis). Hard mana denial plan with early Wastelands could steal me one or two games but that’s it.

    I played this list

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1213698#online

    with 2 Brightlings instead of Serra Avenger and Disenchant instead of Benalish Marshal

    Any thoughts about the matchup?
    I've taken Koke's advice and built my sideboard to beat Miracles and Grixis Control. I now have 2 Cataclysm, 1 Gideon, AoZ, and I went up to 3 Council's Judgment. I haven't played against Grixis Control much, but I assume that that sideboard version will be good against it.

  9. #10129

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Diamond View Post
    Hi @ll,

    What do you guys think about the Grixis Control matchup? I played some matches against a friend of mine and it felt pretty unwinnable. Grixis Control almost always managed to recover from early hatebears and closed the games with JTMS. And even after sideboarding where I bring in things like RIP, Canonist, Disenchant, Relic-Warder, Gideon the matchup doesn´t feel better (even more creature hate from Grixis). Hard mana denial plan with early Wastelands could steal me one or two games but that’s it.

    I played this list

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1213698#online

    with 2 Brightlings instead of Serra Avenger and Disenchant instead of Benalish Marshal

    Any thoughts about the matchup?



    First thing first: while I disagree with some specific card selections, your deck list looks fine, overall.

    As for Grixis Control itself, the matchup isn't actually that bad, but it is overall slightly unfavorable. It is certainly much better than Czech Pile was. Your specific build may have a bit more trouble, though. While I am a huge fan of Brightling, it is at its worst versus Strix decks. Prior to the DRS ban, I used to run 3 Crusaders to crush Pile. This is probably overkill now, but more Crusaders definitely help.

    It is important to understand the dynamics of this match. You are going to win a percentage of uncontested wins just by hitting them with a stream of mana denial early. That is the best path to victory, if it is available.

    If it is not, and both sides have comparable draws, it turns into a long and grindy game where they slowly amass card advantage. There is no card that just wins, but the accumulated advantage eventually becomes overwhelming. You have to look for ways to beat that. If you can get a Mother of Runes to stick, that often just does it--they run very few effects to unconditionally and economically remove it. Do beware of Toxic Deluge, though. Karakas plus Thalia is also excellent, attacking safely into any blocker other than Angler while making removal and cantrips harder. Do not rely on your equipment, but get it and get value ASAP if you have an opening to do so. Vials are handy, but also inconsistent--try to get Wisp value anyway with SFM and Recruiter if you can. The most important PW they have is actually not JtMS but LtLH--this is your primary Revoker target, but have a plan to handle the removal that will come it's way.

    Your sideboards are both very powerful, but you must be careful not to overboard. Disenchants and LRW are not where you want to be unless you expect upwards of three high-impact cards (Dread, Needle, Rod). Your RiP are great though, answering a lot of their potential economy provided by Command and Snapcaster, plus making it hard to cast Anglers. CJ is a robust and flexible answers to their permanents. Gideon can turn a slightly behind board into a definitively winning one. There are other cards that you can have in the board like an extra Crusader, Lightcaster, or Cataclysm which are also high impact. A spare Recruiter can be good if you have it. Your weaker cards are those which are too conditional on vulnerable synergies and easily removed--this is one match where Flickerwisp is weaker, as is Revoker. StP is also not great, as it trades without their creatures mostly at card disadvantage. For their part, expect them to bring in some generic anti-swarm cards like Deluge and Casualties, anti-ability effects like Needle, maybe another LtLH, and potentially some specialized anti-DnT tools like Dread of Night, while dropping a lot of countermagic. Use this to your advantage: spells in hand are vulnerable, but those on the stack are less so.

    In summary: this match is very close, and small differences in your build as well as play technique matter a lot. It is a match that needs a lot of practice to really get comfortable with, and demands a lot of you mentally. Don't give up on it, do practice it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marungo View Post
    I’m not looking to get in an argument. All I’ll say is that if you believe miracles to be anything better than unfavorable, you are probably playing against bad miracles players.
    Reading over the last few bits, I think you actually quite enjoy looking for arguments.

    I do happen to agree with the substance of your post, though probably to a lesser degree than you meant it. The matchup ranges from “significantly unfavorable” to “better than a coin flip,” depending heavily on the specific configurations used. DnT decks with Brightling, Cataclysm, and SoWaP do significantly better than those without them. The same is true for Miracles builds with EE. This is also a match where experience matters a lot. Without knowing the specific configurations and assuming competent pilots of similar skill, I tend to think of it as mildly unfavorable: I expect the DnT player to win an average of 40-45% of their matches versus Miracles.

  10. #10130

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    Reading over the last few bits, I think you actually quite enjoy looking for arguments.

    I do happen to agree with the substance of your post, though probably to a lesser degree than you meant it. The matchup ranges from “significantly unfavorable” to “better than a coin flip,” depending heavily on the specific configurations used. DnT decks with Brightling, Cataclysm, and SoWaP do significantly better than those without them. The same is true for Miracles builds with EE. This is also a match where experience matters a lot. Without knowing the specific configurations and assuming competent pilots of similar skill, I tend to think of it as mildly unfavorable: I expect the DnT player to win an average of 40-45% of their matches versus Miracles.
    Well ya got me there. I am one who does like a nice debate or argument, particularly on a subject that is up for debate or something I feel is interesting. But in this case I really was looking to avoid one since people seem to feel strongly on this subject, myself included. I would say that playing against players of very solid caliber I believe it to be 40%. I don’t think it’s good and despite our best efforts and trying to get cute playing snow-covered plains, we aren’t likely to make it favorable. All in all though I really liked your response. Quite detailed and covered a lot of the ideas that I think summarizes the matchup and different deck decisions that play a role in said matchup.

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