[Deck] Death and Taxes

[bakofried]

Ended up playing against Miracles and UW StoneBlade a truckload of times. Brightling felt great. It+Vial@3 was basically beatable. Shalai...less so. It was probably just a function of the match-up though. White removal is really good against her, especially when the opponent has access to sweepers and may not care about Mother+Shalai. I'll need to give her another run against other decks before I come to a firmer conclusion, however.

One strike against her: ticking Vial up to 4 feels -awful- with Brightling in the deck.

[colo]

Toying with G splash ideas again... did you know that Rishkar, Peema Renegade exists? This is an interesting creature, I think: recruitable, brings 3 or 4 power on the table, helps offset -1/-1 effects and damage-based removal, can help accelerate/stabilize mana considerably, and has an interesting recursion element with Karakas. I am somewhat intrigued - it could even make Shalai's activated ability usable.

[ParisFlorian]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

[colo]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

Ad Scrubland: I played a list with 3 Cavern of Souls and 4 Aether Vials as the only ways to put both Magus of the Moon and Orzhov Pontiff onto the battlefield. Sure, you end up with them "stranded" in your hand every once in a hwile, but the benefits hugely outweight the drawbacks, in my experience. You definitely do not need a dual-/fetchland manabase for a very light, creature-only splash to work.

Ad P&K: I guess it depends on the particular metagame, but frankly, I'm not very up to date on D&T these days. Both are very good cars in a vacuum, but I'd say that P&K is the stronger option in a Miracles-infested metagame (mainly due to them being recruitable), while the 2 toughness is a liability in a metagame with Kolaghan's Command running rampant.

Ad Brightling: A promising and very flexible option, but I'm somewhat unsure of its viability in a cavern-heavy build. I think you really want unconditionally white mana available with this card, and you'll often find yourself without that in a list that runs 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 2-3 Cavern of Souls.

[Lord Darkview]

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

On using Caverns over Duals+Fetches: Not a great idea. With 4 Caverns, you will usually be able to cast them. However, now you have a lot of potentially non-white mana sources in a deck that needs a lot of white mana. If you want to reliably cast Pontiff AND Flickerwisp, you need to use fetches and duals.

On PnKN vs Shalai: They're both great, but different. PnKN is one of the two best reasons to play Wr, and is absolutely crushing versus control. Shalai is also good, but a drop weaker versus control and instead with lots of upside against random other decks. Both of these cards are under pressure by Brightling though, who really wants all of your mana, and your Vials to stay on 3.

On Brightling in a Caverns build: Probably yes, but I definitely wouldn't go over 2 copies. You really want triple-white (or at least Vial and white) for best results, and a Cavern manabase won't find that third white source until turn 7 on average.

[potentia]

What if we take this as a base, with Brightling and Remorseful Cleric (RC hereafter) as new includes that seem very strong. I'm going to go with some points Medea_ made on his stream this morning and then add a few thoughts.

Creaturesc 23 (2-3 slots open)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Brightling
1 Remorseful Cleric

Spells 8
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Equipment 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands 23 (0-1 slots open)
12 white
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Canonist
2 RiP
2 Surgical/Faerie
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Other (Containment Priest, Gideon, Sanctum Prelate, Pithing Needle, etc.)

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Meta decks Medea_ focused on:
Grixis Delver, 4c Control, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Mono-R Prison, Lands, Reanimator, DnT, Eldrazi Stompy. (I would add in ANT; Elves isn't getting better in either case.)


The New Cards
1. Brightling seems very strong against the current Tier 1 meta: lifegain is relevant, being able to adjust P/T is relevant, bounce to evade is relevant, and vigilance isn't bad sometimes too. However, it also has a bit of a logic of it's own that it exerts on the deck building.
a. 1WW with a lot of W for effects means lands not making W are less and less welcome. Shapeshifter also makes Cavern pretty bad. The result is that we want maximum true W sources, making Horizon Canopy and possibly Flagstones the only really viable alternatives to Plains + Karakas as we currently stand.
b. Brightling may or may not make Batterskull less important. Lifelink is the first obvious similarity, but so is the ability to bounce it, and for W instead of 3. Brightling can be Vialed in but not tutored for. Brightling can also become a 5/1 or 1/5 depending on what you really need.
c. Does this become the new way to race TNN, despite the lack of offensive evasion (bounce is strictly defensive evasion)?

2. RC is a 2/1 flyer for 1W that exiles from target player's graveyard on sac. Those are not bad stats and effects.
a. Strong against Delver, ANT, and 4C in general, great against Reanimator, and Lands. Probably not hugely relevant against Mono-R Prison, Eldrazi Stompy, Elves and Sneak and Show.
b. Seems like it would wear a sword well and will come down reliably on turn 2, unlike the better tank known as Serra Avenger which is a slot it would fight over.
c. Does not necessarily wreck Tarmogoyf or DRS since it only hits one graveyard. Just saying.
d. Not taxed by Thalia and comes in off of Vial, which are important attributes.

Questions about choices if we are using Brightling main
1. Deck space gets tighter because the flex slots more or less have been 5-6 slots currently taken up by Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Palace Jailer and to a much lesser extent, Shalai.
2. Probably makes a very strong case for 24 lands so you can have 16 white sources.
3. I don't think RC changes the deck as much as Brightling, since there are still plenty of situations in which we want RiP and Surgical/Faerie in the side.

Trying to Get Out of the Box (I lay no claim to making new claims here, I am just trying to assemble some thoughts i have had and ideas I have heard)
1. Do we need Batterskull if we have 1-2 Brightling?
a. Option 1: -1 SFM,, -1 Batterskull
b. Options 2a-c: -1 Batterskull, +1 Other Sword. 2a: This is potentially interesting because Sword of War and Peace is both another source of life gain and a very good card against Miracles and DnT. 2b: However, with the abilities, maybe Sword of Feast and Famine is interesting for the untap after combat, though I think it pairs less well with Crusader and does less for us in general. 2c: If lifelink and one-sided graveyard hate is relevant, maybe Sword of Light and Dark is a consideration?

2. Is Cataclysm worse if consistent access to W mana is increasingly important?
a. Cataclysm is very good versus Lands and Miracles, but would any of the above alter that math?
b. Would something like Gideon come back or even Elpseth, Knight-Errant? (No, the new 4 mana Ajani isn't good enough, but I thought about it for a couple of seconds.) Elspeth in particular has some nice synergies here.

3. If 24 lands and a very consistent W manabase is back on the table, are Palace Jailer and Shalai back on the menu? (For lots of players, Jailer never went away.)

I believe the issues raised in this post (above) are the ones that will give fuel to a good discussion towards an attempt to consolidate a 'new' WW D&T decklist. I think we should be discussing (and soon testing) these points.

[ChrisCunningham]

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.

[Umezete]

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.

How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

[Lord Darkview]

At 25 land, I'd really start to worry about threat density versus Pile and similar decks where Brightling does not ensure a win on its own.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I bought 4 Japanese nonfoil as that is my "thing" and I won't be getting rid of any.

25 lands is a lot...but for 3 Brightling, maybe? I'm on 24 lands, 2 B-ling main, 1 B-ling and so far, so good. Truth time: card is really good vs. Czech Pile so far. A lot of their removal isn't good enough, nor do they really have enough of it. Strix gets overwhelmed by the first half of the game where it's DnT business as usual, as well as the trickle of creatures later.

I am, however, not doing very well vs. Miracles, the UW build, not the red splash.

[G0R3F3ST]

Hey everyone! I thought I would share my success this week at my local game store. I went 4-0 on my Tuesday night event and 3-1 on my Friday night event, missing the perfect week by losing my last round. My thoughts when I first saw brightling in the battlebond spoilers, was it is playable, just not for me. Now that I've tested it. It is now one of my favorite cards in the deck. Brightling has saved me in so many games and matches.
Here is my decklist.

Creatures:26
X4 mother of runes
X4 Thalia, GOT
X4 stoneforge mystic
X2 phyrexian revoker
X2 Serra avenger
X4 flickerwisp
X2 recruiter of the guard
X2 Miran crusader
X2 brightling

Spells: 11
X4 aether vial
X4 swords to plowshares
X1 umezawa's jitte
X1 sword of fire and ice
X1 batterskull

Lands: 23
6 plains
6 snow covered plains
3 Karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

Sideboard: 15
X3 path to exile
X2 ethersworn canonist
X1 containment priest
X1 leonin relic warder
X3 rest in piece
X1 recruiter of the guard
X2 council's judgment
X2 cataclysm

I didn't really take detailed notes about my matches. Just what won me the game. There is footage of my Friday night matches on twitch( paragon city games) However, they jump back and forth too much to get the full match.

Tuesday night report: 4-0
Rnd 1 Merfolk:2-0
G1: removal and Serra avenger equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: batterskull equipped with sofai for the win.

Rnd 2 grixis delver: 2-0
No notes

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
No notes

Rnd 4 WUr miracles: 2-0
G1: double vial, ported down, wasted,and flickered there white sources. I dealt 10 damage one combat and 14 the next combat.
G2: he is at 9 life. I have another massive board state with vial on 3. He taps out to cast terminus and on his end step, I put in mirran crusader. Then on my turn I equip Sofia and attack for lethal.

Friday night event: 3-1
Rnd 1 BUG control: 2-0
G1: mirran crusader equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: opp. Keeps one land hand with dread of night. I win with 3 stoneforge mystics in play.

Rnd 2 tezzarator: 2-0
I was on stream so I didn't take notes.

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
I was on stream so no notes again.

Rnd 4 UW miracles: 0-2
I was on stream. if you feel like watching me choke go right ahead.

[Finn]

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

[G0R3F3ST]

^ ww was kind of awkward sometimes. You just have to keep those opening 7 hands with a w land, a colorless, and a vial. Then hope to draw a 2ND w land.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?

[Medea_]

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

I have gotten a TON of messages/emails/pms about Brightling. People love it.

[Finn]

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?

I am hoping that Brightling can simply be our beater. I think the deck wants three, but I do not own three yet. Shalia is something new. I had three for testing, and it did not feel like too many. But, ya know. Space.



4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice <--thanks, Jumbo
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains


On another note: I realize that the deck is trending into expensive creatures. I am more comfortable with this than I used to be. They are actually larger and so harder to kill for red.

[ChrisCunningham]

How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

The only quality testing I have is against miracles, and every single game felt trivially easy with 3 Brightling. This makes sense though; if we add a bunch of expensive unkillable stuff we will be better against control decks that don't have Baleful Strix. Having tons of lands felt amazing, too. One time I drew all 3 Brightling, which was sad because I couldn't effectively deploy a second one, but then, it wasn't all that sad since the first one instantly ended the game.

When your board is Thalia+Brightling and you have Karakas+Plains up, and your opponent has to Terminus nothing just for tempo, you're doing it.

[mrjumbo03]

@Finn, your list only has 59 cards. I'm assuming you missed the SOFI.

[Marungo]

DRS and probe are banned.

Maybe now I can play dnt again haha

[mrjumbo03]

Might be premature but I reckon we'll be a DTB again in no time. Time to punish those $1000+ manabases again.