Cataclysm is also really good against Mono Red Prison.
Thraben U down 😔
And this is the kind of discussion I love to see.
@Medea_
What I would love to know is how many times have you drawn Cataclysm and been unable to cast it and died with it in hand because you didn't have the mana or been countered. That has always been my problem with CMC 4 non-creature spells and why both Cataclysm and Gideon have frustrated me. Cataclysm is, except for Miracles, essentially used to defeat deck without FoW, right? Those decks have been on the rise and Clysm is better because of it.
Medea_ also made a good point some time ago in the debate over Surgical v Faerie, which is that Surgical is an amazing card against Lands. Against Lands, even with Cataclysm, I want 2 RiP and 2 Surgical. The question, I guess, is whether or not we can reliably beat Lands with only 2 Surgical and 2 RiP. I don't think that helps vs. Miracles at all.
@Cataclysm_Beats_Mono-R_Prison
Yes, pretty much. It won't get rid of the last Ensnaring Bridge, but it will basically wipe out everything else and if their board is land/bridge/blood moon, that's fine with me.
@everyone
I really like the fact that Cataclysm is very strong against not just Lands, Miracles and Mono-R Prison, but also some other decks we see much more of now, namely Post, BG and Mid Depths, and Steel Stompy, which are basically 8% of the meta. I don't think PWs are any good against those decks.
Thanks for all the input.
Many very valid points in this discussion and I would like to add that I got the feeling people are better prepared for opposing PW's then they are against cards like Cataclysm. I will compare it with something I find my self quite often when playing against Miracles. Even though we are a control deck at heart at some point in this matchup we just have to try and pull the switch to make them have the Terminus. Sure you can win games in those grindy MU's by flying to Valuetown with Recruiter + Wisp, but im not a fan of leaning to strong in that direction.
With Cataclysm your opponents often just have to play into it because they cant beat it anyway or they a just not to familiar with the card.
I myself got a lot more practice with Gideon and he won me a lot of games as well but I will try to bring Cataclysm to full work this time.
A quick update to that 4x avenger 4x brightling list i posted. I was bringing in 2 cataclysm and 2 path to exile and boarding out 4 thalias against pile decks. The opposing strixes just weren't that big of a deal. lilly the last hope, k command and marsh casualties didnt feel like the fistings that they normally do. Found that the thalia tax on myself was doing more harm than good with this particular build where I dont want to grind value. Just trying to smash through with brute force so having the 1 mana removals for strix and drs to pave the way were better.
What is pushing DnT out of the DTB forum? I feel like it is just as strong as it has always been///
Too much Leovold.dec?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I don't understand what you mean when you say strixes "just weren't that big of a deal." What are you doing to their Baleful Strixes? Swordsing them? Trading with a Serra Avenger? Tapping Mom to attack and getting Mom killed? Casting Cataclysm???Originally Posted by a tribe called trest
From the DTB discussion thread at the tope of Decks to Beat section:
"So how are decks selected for the DTBF?
Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's." They then take the top 4.6% based on those results. DnT is apparently 1) being played by fewer players and 2) putting up fewer Top 32 results at "large, competitive events." You can see this month's tally for decks on the last page of the DTB Discussion thread.
For what it's worth, I don't board in Cataclysm vs Lands. The card is really only good if you already have RiP or Surgical on Loam. Otherwise they just rebuild infinitely faster than you.
The new Tormod's Crypt-spirit is nice. However, my heart sank a little bit when I saw that it has Toughness 1. Sigh. Another creature that dies to Marsh Casualties. I would caution people who want to cut down on Serra's Avenger and play Remorseful Reverend instead. We need flyers that can keep in the air and fly over True-Name, but not flyers that die along with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Recruiter of the Guard, Vryn Wingmare and whatever else 1 Toughness creatures when your opponent casts Marsh Casualties or whatever else -1/-1-effect. I would LOVE this creature if it was 2/2.
So I understand where you are coming from, but using Marsh Casualties as an example is kind of a bad one, as when I play Czech pile, I often get to kick it and give -2/-2 against DnT.
However, I get your drift, so to speak. I also agree the stats on Reverend are sub-optimal. I think that too often this will have to be played off vial in response to whatever is going on (Reanimate, Snapcaster/DRS target, whatever) to be used effectively, especially when playing against Tin Fins/Bizarro Stormy, who go off at instant speed (I understand we'll be hard-pressed to get vial to 2 before they go off, but it does happen). I'll of course be getting some, but I have doubts of it's true usefulness overall.
I was hoping for a 0/2 with both RIP effects for 1W or WW.
So while I am a big fan of Cataclysm, I appreciate a lot of the arguments against it. I've observed, as have others, that 4-mana non-creature spells can pose a host of problems for us. But I just had a crazy idea:
Why not put Shalai in the 4-mana SB slot?
She's good in most of the same matches we want the 4-mana non-creature spells for. She also randomly hoses other decks the way Cataclysm can, and provides positive pressure the way Gideon/Elspeth do. While she creates a bit of pressure on Vial numbers, having her makes your entire board state less vulnerable.
Is this brilliant, or merely crazy?
Reading is key.
Edit: I put 2 in my board to test back when I first wrote my quote.
Basically, yes. Bringing in additional 1 mana removal and using it aggressively on strix. Having them exiled keeps them off rebuying them with kcommand and lilly.
I believe @Medea_ has tested Shalai and despite being really good, it maybe fits better into a Maverick build (such as in Miranda Keith's list).
I don't think the testing threshold has been met to make a decision about Shalai, especially with recent reports of other individuals giving Shalai credit for their strong finishes. It absolutely should see play in Maverick for the ability to actively utilize the pump effect as well as her protection, but I don't think she is able to be put off completely yet in DnT.
So then to repeat the question:
What is causing DnT to 1) be played by fewer players, 2) put up fewer top 32 results at “large competitive events” and hence get DnT moved out of the DtB forum that you can see the tally for on the last page of the DTB discussion thread?
I have recently switched from Maverick to DFD Taxes and love it but apparently the deck is losing ground; I am wondering why?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Agreed. My personal card scoring ranks her as one of the ten best non-land cards in overall matchup performance, but with a variance more akin to an SB card. This is why it may make more sense as an SB card.
Basically, what happened was this. Everyone agreed Shalai was worth testing. Then they agreed Shalai was good. Then they ran into a few hiccups, mostly stemming from everyone playing more Karakas to fight Depths, or Delver where she's slow. And then Brightling came along and was the best thing we've gotten in years, and everyone forgot all about her. No one really continued testing, nor did anyone run with the results we'd discovered: excellent, but maybe inconsistent, don't we have a place for those cards?
Also, the way in which we've adapted to Brightling is synergistic with Shalai. Brightling has put many of us eager to play more lands, whereas for Shalai alone it might have been grudgingly. Also, Brightling displaced flyers in some builds, and Shalai can shore that up in matchups where it matters. Also, one of the few ways for your Brightling to get removed is to be hit with discard, especially instant speed like K. Command or V. Clique, and Shalai stops that.
I'm not saying, "This is definitely the future," but I do think it is worth considering in the same vein as PWs, Cataclysms, or extra Brightlings in the SB.
On this note, would it be too ambitious to run 2 Brightling and 1 Shalai MB? Though Shalai has flying, it is indeed slow vs. Serra Avenger and/or Vryn Wingmare. It feels like we should have more than 4 fliers (Flickerwisp) against Delver, preferably 6 fliers?
I don't think it's too ambitious, though I wouldn't do it personally. I definitely wouldn't count on Shalai being fast enough versus Delver (though if she does ETB, she probably takes over the game), and I also like extra flyers. My current plan is to run Avengers until Remorseful Clerics are available to replace them. This will probably help the Delver matchup (being that it is a native 2-drop) and some others (by virtue of its activated ability), but will weaken the matchups against things like Eldrazi or the mirror. If you want to make the speed-vs-durability tradeoff right now, some people have had success with Selfless Spirit.
I think a lot of lists are getting ambitious with trimming a lot of 2 drops, and playing too many 3s. There are some hard decisions for cuts that pilots are going to have to make pretty soon. Playing more than ~10-11 3 drops is going to be very difficult, and I feel like I'm already pushing my luck playing that many, even after cutting Batterskull. If you can find another 3 drop cut to run a maindeck 4 drop, I guess you could? It's possible that Brighling wants every mana you can spare after you untap with it, so I don't know if 4 drops in the maindeck is where I want to be.
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