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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #2001
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Pretty crappy, Penguinizer. I typically do not do so well against Pox. But then I usually beat Bant and Maverick. Also, I hear about the Finnish nationals every single year. Is it a big event or just the only one nearby?

    @DDK: I think most of us agree that Thalia is going to be nuckin' futs. As cool as it is though, I kinda wish it weren't a legend so we could have four. There really is not anything in the deck hurt much by it either. Paying 4 for a weapon can get cumbersome, but we will probably be using Mystics for that. As mana hungry as this deck is, it really does not cast a lot of spells.
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  2. #2002

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    It's a 100 or so person event that's held yearly. There are smaller tournaments at least once or twice a month but they don't have anything close to the prize pool the champs get.

    Anyways, the Maverick and Bant matches should have been mine but I made some critical misplays or didn't have the right SB cards. With them it could have gone better. Next time's the charm I suppose.

  3. #2003
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I've tested Thalia in some D&T lists. Just wow. With a karakas or a mom out she's like the most annoying creature ever for decks with tight manabases. Can't be blocked by snapcaster and Delver, make flashback cost for snapcaster a bitch, make most removal irrelevant since it's hard for them to play two removal with increased mana cost in response to the karakas/mom ability etc...

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  4. #2004
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

    i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best

  5. #2005
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by AggroSteve View Post
    i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

    i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best
    Wow, I haven't realized this before, but indeed you can bounce her after the first strike damage, before regular damage. Also, first strike let you abuse Jitte shenanigans.
    I believe she'll be at least a two-of.
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  6. #2006
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

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  7. #2007

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Thalia in testing is good. What do we cut for this creature though? I ran 3 in the main in testing and found it to be too much. I think two is the correct number. I wish it was not legendary to have multiple on the field.

    Your guys thoughts on the card?

  8. #2008
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Timmy, the number to include is going to be heavily influenced by how much the opponents will want to be rid of it. It is remarkably similar to Stoneforge Mystic in that sense. I do not really want to resolve more than one of these in a game. But my opponents are so keen to counter it that I have discovered that the fourth is necessary.

    So, if it is truly the bomb that everyone seems to think it will be, we may indeed want three or even four in the main with the expectation that most opponents will have to be rid of it quickly. If it is more situation than it appears, I may go with two in the main and one or two in the side.
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  9. #2009

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    @ Finn: Thanks for the response.

  10. #2010

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

    Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

    D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

    I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

    In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

    I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

    Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.

  11. #2011
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ReinVos View Post
    I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

    Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

    D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

    I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

    In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

    I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

    Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.
    I play both D&T and Maverick, but both decks--at least in my opinion--play vastly different. Mav has some control, sure, but it's ultimately all about giving a dude a stick to beat up your opponent.

    D&T does this as well, but plays more of a control game. Rishadan Ports and Wastes deny early mana sources and slow the game down, along with the added time given by thalia. Jotun Grunts shrink yards and goyfs, revokers shutdown some decks completely (and cripple decks like mav) and flickerwisp is seriously one of the most underrated creatures in legacy. When combined with Vial, D&T is able to make things hurt on an opponent's turn, esp. during their upkeep.

    Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P) Also, he EXILES permanents, preventing recursion.

    I play D&T because I love taxing my opponents to death. Legacy is a money game imo, and I really dislike how people can simply buy their way to the top. D&T is one of those decks that, for relatively little money, is competitive and economic--and really good at punishing the greediest money-decks in legacy.

  12. #2012
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning View Post
    Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P)
    Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.
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  13. #2013

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Mav and DnT are very different. Mav just presents threat after threat after threat until you die. DnT shuts down parts of your game until it can give a dude a stick and win.

    Mav doesn't even really run the same cards as us, apart from the SFM package and Mum. In fact, Mav evolved from GW DnT, and ended up dropping most of the disruption pieces for more beef.

  14. #2014
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by trivial_matters View Post
    Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.
    Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.

  15. #2015

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning View Post
    Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.
    After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.

  16. #2016

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    But the strategy of threat after threat Maverick is presenting is aimed towards shutting the other deck down, just like Death & Taxes. If you're aggro, I'll get my Knight to block your guys and fetch out a Maze of Ith. If you're Show and Tell, I'd like a Knight to find a Karakas. If you're Dredge or Reanimator, I'll find an Ooze, Thrun for Stoneblade and if you're burn, I'd like Mystic to find me a Jitte. Mother of Runes is there to protect your future bombs from getting answered, which makes it an equally dangerous threat.

  17. #2017

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by nwong View Post
    After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.
    A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.
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  18. #2018
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    @Barbed Blightning, I have read other people say that Vial is just like haste with Mangara also. I think they mean that as an approximation.

    @ReinVos, pretty interesting question. I have put some thought into this.

    Let me begin with the fact that I have never used Maverick proper, and my only experiences with the deck come from facing it with D+T. It does not usually go well for Maverick. The reason, I think, is because Maverick is tuned for a metagame that does not include D+T. It has three different search engines in the same deck. That is pretty amazing really, but it also means that there are a decent number of bad cards in any Maverick deck against something like D+T. I bring this up primarily because it is case in point for how the decks differ.

    Maverick reactively calls up specific answers to handle the threats that it faces. By contrast, D+T proactively uses generic effects (taxes) that dilute or limit the effectiveness of whatever opponent it faces. This is certainly not a rule of thumb. After all, the two decks share a lot of common elements so they must overlap in a few ways. And it is not even a proper description in terms of time. But, when looking for differences, that seems to highlight the broad outlines. This has implications for a number of different aspects of play.

    When using Maverick, you really have to know your deck. You have to be able to analyze what is the right card to fetch to handle the game state. In D+T, you also really have to know your opponent's deck too. Your tools are not straight forward so you have to be able to know the way to disrupt so that it hurts the opponent most using nibbling tactics instead of gulping tactics. It is not for everyone.

    For Mav, a good pilot is necessary, but it is only as good as the answers it runs. Because the tools in D+T are so malleable, there is greater room to outplay your opponent. For D+T, good answers are necessary, but it is only as good as its pilot.

    That is why D+T beats Mav, I think. D+T's tools are not hoping to see a Maverick-type of opponent either. But they are agile enough to adapt on their own where Maverick can sacrifice a bit of tempo here and there to fetch imperfect tools from its deck. It is the same for D+T against any opponent that is permanent-dependent (rather than stack-dependent).
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  19. #2019
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.
    But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

    This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

    While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

  20. #2020

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    The key word is "consecutively" pass priority. After Vial is done resolving, priority returns to them because they are the active player.

    As for Flickerwisp, if you play one and target your own Wisp, at end of turn, your exiled Wisp will return. You can then exile something with it. This will have missed the "at end of turn" trigger, and the permanent will return at the next opportunity, ie. at the end of the next turn, not the current one.

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