I really like the idea of this deck and maybe start building it. What is the learning curve for this deck like? I've only played with tezzaffinitly, dredge(led,less,&manaless), burn, u/r delver, grixis tempo, and reanimator. So, I basically don't have any experience with any of the deck sans sfm.
@rxavage, I have been playing Death and Taxes for over a year and I would say it's very skill intensive and rewards tight play. Considering the fact that DnT plays with "fair" cards, you try to parlay small incremental advantages throughout the match to win. And because of this, you tend to grind out games, something that your previous decks don't do (Based on your list, you seem to like being the aggressor and/or comboing off). I don't think this deck can be just picked up by anyone prior to a tourney and do well with it as there are plenty of interactions that one can only master through experience making its learning curve really high. It also rewards a player's ability to read an opponent as to what he is playing, as the deck doesn't have library manipulation so you should know what is good and bad for a certain matchup. Furthermore, some of the deck's best cards require knowledge of how your opponent's deck operates to gain optimum value, like using Rishadan Port to cut off the best color, blind naming for Phyrexian Revoker, fetching the correct equipment etc.
I honestly believe that it has a good to great matchup against the top of the field in the current meta based on personal experience, plus the addition of Thalia might just push the deck over the top as it strengthens some of its weaker matchups (Not enough testing on this yet).
I do suggest that you playtest the deck on Cockatrice or proxy some of the cards first as you wouldn't want to be splurging on 4 Karakases and 4 Rishadan Ports then deciding that the deck is not for you. Karakas is usually a 1-of in other decks and the Ports are only used in Lands and Goblins. Hope this helps!
Hello,
In the current meta which would you pick of the 2 build, please add reason for picking it over the other aswell
Build 1
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 karakas
9 plains
2 flagstones of trokair
Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial
Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 phyrexian revoker
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
2 jotun grunt
1 leonin arbiter
4 serra avenger
4 flickerwisp
2 mangara of corrondor
_______________________________
Build 2
Lands [22]
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 karakas
2 plains
1 forest
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
1 maze of ith
Spells [11]
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte
4 stp
4 aether vial
Creatures [27]
4 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 stoneforge mystic
3 qasali pridemage
4 serra avenger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader
Thanks
I would personally prefer build #1 (close to my current list) and if I really wanted to play something like build #2 I would probably just play a dedicated maverick list. Build #2 seems like it's trying to do too much at once.
I'd pick the first list. I don't agree with all choices in it, namely Leonin Arbiter and, to a lesser degree, Jotun Grunt.Originally Posted by _erbs_
But the second list has a lot of questionable choices, in my opinion, such as Noble hierarch (not needed with Vials, IMO), Mirran Crusader (Reliquary is a better beater, I'd prefer more utility) and specially the mana base.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
Build #1 definitely. For one, it is a lot more stable in terms of its manabase (though Flagstones seems an odd choice w/o cataclysm, esp. without a 4th Karakas) and is more pointed in how to play it--obviously a taxation deck.
#2, however, is torn between being Maverick and D&T. Nobles/Birds and Vials shouldn't be in the same deck, imo, since the ramp they provide is often readily available in vial. Overall, if you want to play knight, crusader and mom in the same deck, just make Maverick. There is a reason why it has been doing so well after all.
Hey guys here is my current list. That I am going to run this at a small tournament.
4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp
4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of feast and famine
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice
4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishidian port
10x plains
Sb
4x enlightened tutor, 1x relic of progentius, 1x tormods crypt, 1x cop red, 1x ensaring bridge, 1x ethersworn canonist, 1x phyrexian metamorph,
I was curious as to what to put in my sideboard other than cataclysm against UW stoneblade decks. I was thinking 3x elspeth or 3x horoki. I do not know which one is better against them. Also what should I take out when I face these stoneblade decks? Last question, what do we do about wrath of god or crucible of worlds... They are a real pain to deal with.
@Wrath of God: if you know your opponent is playing it, don't overextend into it. That is, do not cast all your creatures from your hand. Losing two to Wrath may be fine. Losing three is backbreaking. Not many decks playing this though. You have a lot of tools to keep opponents from getting the mana, especially with Thalia now.
@Crucible: we have enough basic lands and aggressive pressure to ever keep Waste-lock from getting us. So once Crucible comes out, your Wastelands and Ports are only for mana. You lose one bullet from your gun. I have not had problems with this card except against Landstill. That was a long time ago, and probably the last time I saw Wrath of God, btw. Come to think of it, the Hokori talk stopped about that time. I feel like I am in a time warp.
Also, Cataclysm is crappy against Stoneblade or any other deck that can field a single creature that is better than what we have - which, btw, is most decks. So forget Cataclysm unless you are only facing tribal stuff.
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"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
On the note of Cat: what's your opinion of Cataclysm in D&T? I bought 3 a while back only because I heard it was an option for the deck, but aside from Flagstones, what are some major changes to the MD, esp. now in relation to Thalia? I don't think I'll make Cat D&T, just merely curious.
Actually I've found Cata to be insane against Stoneblade. The only creatures they can field are Snaps, Cliques and Batterskull. If you can keep them off an early Batterskull, Cata can pretty much seal the deal. It's a massive blowout when they tap out for Jace/Elspeth and you Cata.
This was before Thalia though, and there is some disynergy there. Also, Stoneblade is generally a pretty good matchup so Cata isn't really too necessary. It is pretty hard to lose after you resolve it though.
I think the biggest problem with Cata is that it's good in the matchups where you are already favoured (apart from random stuff like Enchantress, Lands etc where it's the nuts).
@ Finn: Thanks. I won't be using catacyslm or horoki then. I will keep one beater on the field to avoid over extending. I was wondering what do you think about including 3x elspeth in my sideboard? Do you think it is necessary? Also what do you think the other spots in the board should based on the weaknesses of this deck?
If I may cut in, I believe that more E Tutor targets tailored for your meta are better. For example, I'm running Stony Silence and Aura of Silence because of the presence of Enchantress at my shop. However, when I go to Jupiter this weekend, I will be switching out some of those cards in favor of others good for that meta (which I understand to be Blue and combo--lair of the beast, am I right?)
Elspeth is fantastic, but I'd rather have outs I am more easily equipped to get.
@Barb lightning:
Thank you. So what do I play in those 5 spots. I brought up elspeth because it is great versus control match ups in other decks but I do not know if it is good in this deck. I have never tried it out. So I guess what I am asking is, Are there artifacts or enchantments that are good against decks that play the control match-up better than us and if so are they better than Elspeth?
I expect to see a lot of burn, uw stoneblade, ur delver, a little combo (ANT, TES). I need more testing with thalia (thorn with legs) to see how the combo match-up is now. This will determine how much hate I put in the board for combo. Here is my current list
4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
3x jotun grunt
3x Thalia
3x mangara of corondor
3x flickerwisp
4x swords
4x aether vial
1x umezawa’s jitte
1x sword of feast and famine
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of fire and ice
4x karakas
4x wasteland
3x rishidian port
11x plains
Sb
4x enlightened tutor, 1x relic of progentius, 1x tormods crypt, 1x cop red, 1x ensaring bridge, 1x ethersworn canonist, 1x phyrexian metamorph, (5 flex spots TBA)
In your flex slots, you can put the following:
Absolute Law
Stony Silence
Aura of Silence
Another Canonist
Grafdigger's Cage
Chalice of the Void
Warmth
Thorn of Amethyst
Or something I'm testing now: Aegis of Honor. http://magiccards.info/od/en/1.html
The way i see it, drop this on burn t1/2/3 and say gg. It costs less than CoP: Red, and reflects the damage back onto them, making less work for your dudes.
I actually like the -1 Rishadan port. Do you have a reason for it, or is it budgeting? Regardless, I've been thinking about cutting down the three myself--they're great waste bait, and they can be back-breaking, but I'd rather have the extra white source.
As a more general question: which is preferred, Feast and Famine or Light and Shadow?
I don't think Stony Silence is a good option to our deck. It hurts us way too much, deactivating our vials and equipment. I prefer looking for other options agaist decks that rely on artifacts, such as Aura of Silence.
Against Burn and UR Delver, I like Energy Storm, as it also prevents our dudes from being burnt. But the upkeep may be hard to pay for.
I agree that 8 colorless sources sometimes hurts our manabase, but I wouldn't cut Ports. Instead, I'm using 23 lands, with 2 Horizon Canopies, and I'm never sad seeing them.
I prefer Light and Shadow because I think it is better against control. But all swords have their own merits, I've used even Body and Mind a while ago and it was very good.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
I have the ports. I just cut one because through playtesting it is important I felt to have 11 white sources. I used to run a full set of wasteland and port when I ran 23 lands and a different build of this deck, but since I added thalia and cut (revoker, flicker, serra avenger) I felt that the last land was not needed. Sword of Light and Shadow for sure. Especially on a flying avenger is amazing (no burning it out, no dismember, no swords or path, vindicate, pulse ...).
@barbed: I will try the manabase with canopy and a full set of port and waste. I personally like feast and famine so that is why I play it.
Funny note by the way. Cage stops NO and GSZ.
Has anyone tested this card. If so, does it have a home in D&T sb?
there was a lot of celebratory speculation when Cage got spoiled. Guess you're a bit late to the party. :P
That is, very much yes, Grafdigger's Cage is great for our SB. I would only caution that it never truly stops Dredge/Reanimator. Remember that Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb are solutions, whereas Cage merely buys us time.
Here's my slightly different approach to the deck. You are welcome to share your ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...orns-amp-Taxes
I see the appeal, but at the end of the day, why not play regular DnT? It already has more disruption and hate for more matchups (whereas Zoo and Mav will give you a very hard time with your deck).
As far as the SB goes, why not a e tutor suite? E tutor's great at virtually multiplying your hate cards, while simultaneously helping you to search for cards like vial and revoker.
also, @timmy: I'd run another canonist, absolute law, grafdigger's cage, oblivion ring and maybe warmth. keep the metamorph for batterskulls.
Last edited by Barbed Blightning; 02-16-2012 at 06:47 AM.
Hello,
Just want to share that i went with my build 2 in a 107-player tourny i played last week. I didn't made it to the top 8 but i finished 14th with a 5-2 record out of 107 players.
The deck performed on what its supposed to do.
i won against most meta deck but i lost to steel city deck and dredge which i really decided not to board against. that cost me if i won my dredge game i would had a chance in making it to the top 8.
the decks i beat was
- 2 uw blade with giest, gw mav, bg loam pox and mono black aggro-control.
i just need to retweak my sb against dredge.
the sb i used was
3 parallax wave
3 flickerwisp
1 pte
1 glowrider
2 jotun grunt
1 bojuka bog
2 gaddok teeg
2 beast within
Last edited by _erbs_; 02-23-2012 at 01:59 AM.
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