@big creatures:Yeah, I think most players of this deck would agree that there is a real advantage to keeping the vial at 3 for most of the game. Unlike Goblins, which can up it to 4 and then 5 in successive turns because it is about to win with the creatures it drops, this deck is certainly slower and more controlling. That is, you have to activate the Vial over and over at 3.
@Worrying about Wrath effects: I don't. In fact, I commonly hold creatures back against some decks even if I do not fear Wrath simply because I am playing control with the creatures in play as they slowly beat. It's sort of a strange place to be, but the guys I am holding are meant to make certain that I maintain control if the ones in play are answered. Deed is often a different story because it takes out the Vial or Jitte along with the creature, thus removing my hold on control. This may change if I am to start playing without Cataclysm.
@Gutting the deck: I, for one, am not against this idea out of hand. As the format changes, so must its constituent decks. God knows I have looked for plenty of ways to get more mileage out of Mangara. But you really do sacrifice a lot to get there. So many of the guys we are running are of great utility. Now with Flickerwisp also, there are just buttloads of ways to deal with stuff. Sure, Doran is great, but he means you are in 3 colors (only 10 green sources btw, ouch) and you lose one more control element. And the only way you can even consider Tarmo is if you have Black and Green. He sucks in this deck with only white and green. So, you would be with Teeg and nothing else if you go just that way. This is why I am turning my attention to Black for the moment. Yet I still want to look at your 3 color version.
I am intrigued, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Dreadstill can keep a board like Dreadnought, Goyf, Counterbalance, Land. Or maybe Dreadnought, Top, Counterbalance, Land.Both of those cases have a dreadnought or a goyf in them. I said it was good when we didn't have creatures, not when we do. Not that it matters. Dreadstill really despises mana disruption, which to a degree cataclysm represents, that's what I'm really getting at. Our Factory Man-plan seems less awesome when all our lands are in the yard. It really doesn't do much vs. any of our other permanents, which you're correct in stating. But if we don't already have a goyf or a nought down, making us go to one land can really hurt. Even if Stifle-nought only costs 2, it still costs 2. Which is more than one. So as long as we don't have another land in hand we're off of most of our spells till we drop another. And if you happen to keep a wasteland to our dual (I'm unsure who chooses first, or when the choices are revealed) you can drop all our lands, and effectively screw us.I can tell you that Cata is bad news for us unless we have dreadnought or goyf on the table. If that's the case, You really shouldn't be dropping Cata
Has anyone considered a black splash with Maralen of the Mornsong? She makes just about every draw spell in the format suck, and shuts off dredge all on her own (though she's a little late for Ichorid. I'm more thinking of LFTL). She obviously kinda blows against combo, but turning off your opponents draw engines while easily setting up Karakas-Mangara seems pretty nice. Plus, who hasn't dreamed of vialing in that badboy in response to a brainstorm? Could be worth testing at least. With the black splash we get lots of other nifty tricks too (Duress, Thoughtseize, Extripate, ect). Lots of fun down that road.
I think too many things need to go right for Maralen to do something worthwhile. An opponent can usually get rid of her in their next turn, in which case we lost some tempo (or gained less than you would have otherwise if she came from a Vial).
If an opponent doesn't want to get rid of her, she naturally sucks.
If I have creatures and Dreadstill doesn't, then I'm winning. I don't want to take an already favorable state and turn it into an even more favorable one, I want answers to Dreadstill's problem cards. I'd rather pack cards to answer CounterTop and Dreadnought, than play an overcosted Stone Rain. Dreadstill only needs 2-3 mana to function, and they can conceivably keep two lands after a Cataclysm by animating a Factory for their artifact. You could end up with essentially zero mana after Cataclysm, but the point of Cataclysm is to turn a bad situation into a good one, not a good one into a better one.
I'm not worried about your manlands, I'm worried about dealing with Dreadnought and CounterTop.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
If I have creatures and Dreadstill doesn't, then I'm winning. I don't want to take an already favorable state and turn it into an even more favorable one, I want answers to Dreadstill's problem cards. I'd rather pack cards to answer CounterTop and Dreadnought, than play an overcosted Stone Rain. Dreadstill only needs 2-3 mana to function, and they can conceivably keep two lands after a Cataclysm by animating a Factory for their artifact. You could end up with essentially zero mana after Cataclysm, but the point of Cataclysm is to turn a bad situation into a good one, not a good one into a better one.
In the case that you have creatures and I don't, Cataclysm will essentially "seal the deal" by keeping me off the mana required to cast my blockers, so that you can finish dreadstill off easily. Yes, I realize this is turning a good situation into a better one, but dreadstill is very swingy. If we have stifle in hand and topdeck a nought no creature you have (barring mangara) is going to keep that dreadnought down. That's why it's important to cast cata. I would think of it more like a (weakened) armageddon than I would cataclysm in these cases. Cataclysm is actually helping you deal with our problem cards by keeping us off the required number of mana, not by forcing us to sacrifice them. I guess in the end it's still a situational card in that matchup, but I still don't think so poorly of them vs. dreadstill.
EDIT: In reading this I realized you're probably better off with just another spell to deal with Dreadnought, than using Cata to try and slow mana production. At the same time, I do like that Cata can get around CB pretty easily with a CMC of four.
In other news, Marlen of Mornsong was intended as sideboard material. I don't know if that came across right, but it seems like boarding her in against Solidarity/Anything with brainstorm could be nice. But Iranon is probably right, too few situations in which she's actually better than another creature. Although she would be somewhat difficult to deal with, condsidering she's black and karakas can bounce her. Still, probably only situationally great.
What's the verdict?
1) Cataclysm - Is this card finally relegated to the sideboard? Or is it still maindeck material?
2) Oblivion Ring - Has this become a standard for the maindeck? How many slots should be dedicated to it?
3) Mana Tithe - Sideboard material only? Or has this card lost its once maindeck status to no longer included anywhere?
1) Yes, unless your meta has a lot of Landstill, MUC, Random Aggro, Rock, and Enchantress.
2) Yes. 3-4 slots.
3) I see no reason to run Mana Tithe, sideboard or otherwise, unless you plan to be playing against a large amount of combo.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
I second that Flickerwisp is awesome. Though a long term fan of Cataclysm, I first tried it in the board and liked the change, then modded the deck so heavily that I didn't even like it in the board anymore. Here's my monowhite version:
Mana (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Chrome Mox
8 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Nomad Stadium
1-cc (15)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2-cc (11)
4 Samurai of the Pail Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3-cc (14)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Glowrider
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Pianna, Nomad Captain
SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Auriok Champion
1 Maze of Ith
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Gaea's Blessing
Card explanations:
Weathered Wayfarer: Was brought up previously in this thread. Allows a wasteland engine and 7 sources of Karakas (we drop the 4th legendary copy of course), plus a land toolbox and better mana consistency. Works best with moxen, vial, sacrificial land tricks and vialing flickerwisp on your own tapped land (also squeezes an EOT mana for StP) to always have "less" lands than your opponent. Easy to use turn 2, when D&T often has mana to spare. Using mangara as land destruction, this gives us 11 sources of targeted LD against landstill, loam (SotPC stops recursion), thresh etc. Together with the taxing of Glowrider, it makes Cataclysm obsolete as far as LD goes (exception: MWC such as rabid wombat, but see below). Removing Cataclysm changes the strategy and also means removing Stonecloaker, since you now have more reliable legend bounce and may want to flood the board at times.
Chrome Mox: The wayfarer synergy is noted above, but also allows for more explosive starts, including turn 2 Glowrider and turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst against storm combo. As you can see, this deck plays more like the fast aggro WW of old days (29 creatures, 3 being Anthem on legs), but keeps the broad spectrum disruption of D&T. The card disadvantage hurts less with 3x3 legends appearing in duplicates at times.
Glowrider: This may seem like an obvious main deck inclusion with 29 creatures, but there's more to it than simply "hurting other more". First, it keeps game 1 against storm combo from being an auto-loss, especially with chrome mox. Second, where D&T normally pre-empts a sweeper with Cataclysm, this now postpones it together with the wasteland engine. This deck has a fundamental turn of 4, making it faster than more standard lists, so postponing only for one turn can often be enough.
Pianna, Nomad Captain: I don't think she has ever been discussed? Obviously, a beater with anthem isn't first priority in the typical catch-all aggro-contral approach that normal D&T takes. Normally, the 3cc slot is also overburdened as is. I've found her to be great in this deck however, since I really want 3x3 legends (rather than 2x3) main deck to get a good use out of Karakas. Together with vial, mox, isamaru, samurai, avenger and jitte, you can really go for fast beatdown. Even turns wayfarer into a surprise beater in the mid-game.
Thorn of Amethyst: I went with this over Orim's Chant since I think the fit with the deck is better. The price I pay is being slighty slower against storm combo. 8 taxing effects + 11 LD sources = gg to most non-creature decks, whether combo or control.
Oblivion Ring: I put this in the sideboard since I think I have enough removal as is in the main. In this deck, Ring isn't really boarded in all the time though - I use it against creature rich decks with key enchantments/artifacts (goblins, FaerieStompy, affinity etc.) since the taxing effects don't work as well here.
Auriok Champion: Discussed before. I prefer her over Tivadar because she is useful against so many other decks too (burn, EtW, ichorid). Helps against the pure aggro MUs that are the most difficult (well built goblins and MBA with pro: W dudes).
Maze of Ith: Have you noticed how many decks running goyf can't handle lands? Also great agains Faerie Stompy and other equipment decks.
Kjeldoran Outpost: This is my answer to MWC like Rabid Wombat where wasteland won't work, and taxing alone might not be sufficient to win. Could even be useful against Landstill is you want something to do while waiting for him to break standstill (after you finish wasting his mana base with wayfarer that is).
Gaea's Blessing: I haven't encountered Imperial Painter yet, but if I do, I thought I could use a little extra protection since it's a good deck and all. You could put pretty much anything in this slot though. In fact, the whole SB is up for meta customization :)
So how does this compare to other D&T lists? The biggest problem with loosing Cataclysm for me has actually been mono-red goblins running Anarchy games 2-3. 4cc sweepers is typically not a problem for me, but I side out glowriders against goblins and the mono-red version is immune to wasteland.
Against all other decks where Cataclysm shined, I've found taxing + wasteland engine to be better. It's also a whole lot better in those games where catacysm didn't shine, such as threshold. Also, not having to factor in a sweeper that hits yourself into your game plan allows for the construction of a faster deck, while still having built in sweeper protection. The quicker clock helps against burn, combo - most decks really.
The lack of main deck Oblivion Rings makes the deck slightly less versatile, but I've really found that 3x Mangara and 4x Flickerwisp is all the generic removal I need (they are also 3cc and get past chalice or counterbalance just fine). Also, ORing can be countered while your utility creatures can enjoy vial protection, plus the Glowrider can make them 4cc if you stick them in the main.
Feel free to try out the list if you have some chrome moxen lying about!
Kar bankooer jeg
If you have the Wayfarer, why not Mox Diamond over Crome Mox?
You can't count it as a white source, but it does help keep your side of the table deficient in lands. That's about the only thing it does though. You can keep a hand of land + chrome mox, or - say - chrome mox + vial, but Mox Diamond would have you mulliganing instead. You could run it in addition to chrome mox, but then you'd have to cut creatures :/
Kar bankooer jeg
Running Moxen of any kind makes you even more susceptible to Pernicious Deed. And Deed is already a problem in the Mox-less list. Here is my list, I became third in the side event of the Belgian National Championschips:
11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
4 Silver Knight
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara Of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Flickerwisp
Sideboard
4 Cataclysm
4 Orim's Chant
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
I was very pleased with the list, and until Shards comes around (Awaiting those exalted cards) will not change a thing.
Flickerwisp AND Stonecloaker MD? Seems like a little much to me. I would fear getting stuck with those guys in hand and nothing to bounce. Ripple effect of Deed or EE, which hurt enough as is.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Flickerwisp is never dead, it can always be a 3/1 flyer for 2 mana. Stonecloaker flies too, and you just need another creature on the board. I play enough critters, so Stonecloaker almost never is a dead card.
Key to playing this deck is remembering that there are very cute tricks to be played, but mostly, you win with a Jitte'd flyer while removing something opposing with an Oblivion Ring or a Mangara, even if only activated once.
How'd ya manage to do that?
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Remove one of your lands with the CiP ability, thereby gaining an extra mana on your opponent's turn. It's not quite two mana for a 3/1 flying, but still...
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
I don't fear pern deed that much with 11 sources of LD and 4x glowrider in the main. It's not like he'll blow it up at 0 just to hit my mox :/ And if he leaves it on the table to await next untap, he risks getting it destroyed. If it's very common in the meta, I'd consider running Pithing Needle in the SB.
Kar bankooer jeg
Wayfarer is indeed a great choice, I have been playing it for quite a while now and must say I am very satisfied. I would only run 3 however, since you really don't want to have 2 in play, and opponents will rarely "waste" their targeting removal on it. About the mini land-toolbox I would add at least a single flagstones (even if you don't run cataclysm), move maze of ith to MD (it's rarely useless) and would remove nomad stadium (is it really usefull other than in the burn MU, where you won't be able to reach threshold in time?). I like kjeldoran outpost alot, but I wonder wheter a single mishra's factory MD wouldn't be better as a whole, without being as risky as the outpost.
Pianna looks nice, but it requires a creatures-heavy build, and I think this is not the way to go in the current format. I would much rather play more targeting removal such as oblivion ring to fight-off opponent's bombs. Also, the lack of evasion amongst your creatures makes Pianna too unreliable.
I still don't see why people are so excited about flickerwisp. A 3/1 flying with a marginal ability that gets better when you're already in a good situation (ie when you have vial @ 3) doesn't attract me. I'd much rather play mana tithe MD (yes, alongside oblivion ring) as an early-game surprise (considering the slowness of D&T compared to some of the most explosive decks in the format) and a tool against combo (a VERY bad MU now that TB left).
What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.
Maybe your opponents don't "waste" their removal on it because it's a terrible card.
Have you ever played with Flickerwisp? Being a 3/1 flier is kind of a big deal, and the useful non-combat ability puts it over the top.
Mana Tithe?! Are you kidding me? Here's a piece of advice: PUNT THE STORM COMBO MATCHUP. Nobody plays Belcher, TES, SI, Fetchland Tendrils, and Solidarity anymore, and they're always going to be bad for us no matter what we run. Mana Tithe isn't even a good card against any of those decks. Death and Taxes is aggro/board control, and the last thing an aggro deck wants to do is pass the turn to maybe counter a spell.
To those who keep trying to turn D&T into a control deck, play Threshold instead.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
Worthwhile considerations, but here's how I thought:About the mini land-toolbox I would add at least a single flagstones (even if you don't run cataclysm), move maze of ith to MD (it's rarely useless) and would remove nomad stadium (is it really usefull other than in the burn MU, where you won't be able to reach threshold in time?). I like kjeldoran outpost alot, but I wonder wheter a single mishra's factory MD wouldn't be better as a whole, without being as risky as the outpost.
*LD in the format comes in Wasteland and Blood Moon effects. A plains is immune to both. Flagstones only to one. If you run Cataclysm, play Flagstones - otherwise, plains is better.
*Maze could be MD if you see lots of use for it. I'd probably take out one SotPC for it.
*Nomad Stadium is there because it sacrifices for a useful effect in the end game, allowing me to fetch another land (wasteland most likely) if I'm tied for # of lands. Against burn, you need an early Jitte or Auriok Champion from the board and/or delaying them with taxing effects.
*Outpost > Mishra too because it keeps the land total low. I suppose either could work well, but I think outpost does more.
Unless you can protect important creatures against removal and have lots of utility in those creatures, for instance:Pianna looks nice, but it requires a creatures-heavy build, and I think this is not the way to go in the current format.
*Wayfarer = Wasteland #5-8, Karakas #4-7
*Mangara = reusable catch-all removal, potentially uncounterable
*Glowrider = potentially uncounterable Sphere of Resistance that is also a threat, can be vialed, and doesn't increase its own cost (like Thorn of Amethyst does).
The above aren't so much "creatures" as they are vialable disruption.
I have 8 fliers, 10 sources of permanent creature removal (6 of them reusable) and can bounce Pianna if a blocker is in the way. Flickerwisp can also remove a blocker if needed. That's plenty.Also, the lack of evasion amongst your creatures makes Pianna too unreliable.
Why do people insist on believing that True Believer helps any combo match-up at all? Or that he helps against any deck at all except anecdotal crap like "this one time at band camp, my opponent had a scepter-chant lock and I managed to vial in True Believer while he was unlucky enough to not draw any removal at all, so that's why you should run true believer."(a VERY bad MU now that TB left).
95% of all combo decks die a horrible death to taxing effects like glowrider and thorn of amethyst. Orim's Chant works well most of time too. Mana Tithe might. That's about it though, when it comes to generic answers (Rule of Law is great too, but you need acceleration like Tomb or Mox to use it before you loose it). And you need those, both because of limited SB space and because you simply cannot expect to draw the correct answer for each possible win condition. You need to hit them with the broad spectrum anti-combotics, or else they will play around it (only too easy with True Believer).
I at least agree with the last part - Wayfarer isn't really a beater. I also agree that you shouldn't go overboard with the MD land toolbox. But it opens up the possibility for SB bombs and good use of those 15 card slots. Now, having less land isn't bad for an aggro deck if it also has mox or vial (or, you know, wayfarer). Having too much land isn't good either obviously, so Wayfarer allows for some flexibility there. Also, guess what - some decks will have more lands whether you like it or not, such as Landstill and Loam decks. Wayfarer will pawn these, being backed up by Vial and SotPC.What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.
And in the match-ups where you don't want to use his ability and spend mana on something more aggressive, he's still a 1/1 for W that you can cast when you have nothing better to do.
On a side note, I think 4 is the correct number for Wayfarer, as landstill tends to force him as expediently as a turn 1 Vial if they can, or StP him immediately if they have any experience with the little bugger. Certain thresh builds hate him too. I also like having 7 possibilities to get Karakas running in the deck for the mid game (moar consistansy = bettar).
Kar bankooer jeg
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