[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Kuma]

Burn doesn't care about your creatures. Burn aims all its burn at you until you force it to do otherwise.

I went 4-0-1 Wednesday with Death and Taxes only to lose to Burn in the first round of the playoffs, ending with no store credit. I beat EPIC Painter, a Uwg Painter list, Rbg Goblins, and WG LoamSlide. I drew into finals with White Weenie.

Burn is a sucky matchup for D&T, as they're usually a little bit faster. You need a Jitte or a really fast hand to have a prayer. Sideboarding should be something like -4 StP, -2 Mangara, +3 Tivadar, +3 Jotun Grunt. If you're sure they don't have Pithing Needles, you can side out O-Rings for Runed Halos.

[Mordel]

Maybe you should read the thread before replying. Kuma argued that SotPC, Grunt and Stonecloaker were good against Ichorid and Maelig answered that Stonecloaker was meh at best in this MU. Kuma replied that Stonecloaker was a bit useful but that he thought Grunts didn't help much except to remove Bridges, and I found that weird. Hence the discussion.
The fact that Maelig runs Samurai too doesn't mean we shouldn't try to evaluate the other creatures' value in this match up, does it?

I actually have read almost every single page of the thread, thanks.

If you actually read their debate thoroughly as someone that pays attention to syntax and so forth, it seems that the concern that was/is central to debate is the comparison of the two creatures' utility. I suppose I could have read a number of replies wrong though (NOT sarcasm) ?

While stone cloaker has utility in little tricks and his cip effect, I think he falls into a similar role as flickerwisp, though their direct uses do very obviously.
They still belong to a three mana evasion/utility/beater slot. There is nothing wrong with running either necessarily, but as far as my preferences with the deck's creature roster, I prefer to have a more streamlined build, as opposed to extra random utility.

I am just stating my opinion here based off of builds of the deck that I have played around with. I have found that lists that are akin to Maelig's most recently posted list suit my needs better which is against a largely undefined metagame, where dragon stompy and random homebrews show up a lot. For what it is worth, the stonecloaker/flickerwisp would be very nice in matches where Mangara tricks get disrupted by wastelands and their ilk...maybe I'll squeeze some of either into my sideboard for that reason.

[Finn]

Hey ppl. I am kinda excited about the Ethersworn Canonist. The short version is that I figure we will all be using this chick over:

Glowrider
Amethyst thingie
Runed Halo

Initially I had been thinking that she is a sb card only, but for anyone taking out Cataclysm, she has to look tempting in the contentious 2cc slot since Flickerwisp is head and shoulders better than True Believer.

@Kuma: I think it would be a mistake to take out STP while leaving O.Rings in against Burn. Certainly the matchup has gone downhill with the last few changes.

@Whitescorpion: I would not waste my time with the Castle. Karakas does more for us, and having a lot of basic lands is a big plus.

Opening post partially updated.

[Kuma]

@Kuma: I think it would be a mistake to take out STP while leaving O.Rings in against Burn. Certainly the matchup has gone downhill with the last few changes.

Why? StPing your own creature postpones losing, but doesn't help you turn the corner. O-Rings are useful for removing Cursed Scrolls and Pithing Needles on Jitte.

I'll give you that there's the odd situation where you have enough damage on the board to kill them plus a litle extra, and you need to turn some of it into life to swing for the kill. But is that more often then needing to zap a Needle or Scroll, etc.

I don't think Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp serve the same purpose, because I don't think the term "three mana evasion/utility/beater slot" is useful. Stonecloaker protects your creatures from removal, does cute things with Mangara, swings tempo, and removes problem cards in the graveyard.

Flickerwisp only does the first two if you have a vial at three, and doesn't do the second two at all. Flickerwisp's primary role is beatdown, its secondary role is random utility like I've outlined earlier. I see no reason to have to pick one or the other.

I wouldn't take Maelig's list into an unknown metagame. His list is fine-tuned for Landstill, Rock, and Combo, and I'd run his list in a meta made of those decks. But I feel like my list is better suited to beat random decks, because it has more options.

[Mantis]

The Canonist doesn't look like a mainboard card. It only looks good against combo and to lesser extent Aggro Loam.
But anyway it's a 2/2 creature with a quite relevant ability, and while usually not gamebreaking it can hurt the gameplan of some decks.

[loop]

Initially I had been thinking that she is a sb card only

I think they could be quite good in the main. I mean, aren't they overall more useful than Samurais, for example? I could see myself maindecking 3, with the last one in the board, and having all 4 Samurais in the SB.

O-Rings are useful for removing Cursed Scrolls and Pithing Needles on Jitte.

Wouldn't burn deal with the jitte with removal like Spree or Smash to Smithereens most of the time anyway?

I don't think Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp serve the same purpose, because I don't think the term "three mana evasion/utility/beater slot" is useful. Stonecloaker protects your creatures from removal, does cute things with Mangara, swings tempo, and removes problem cards in the graveyard.

Yup, I totally agree :)

The Canonist doesn't look like a mainboard card. It only looks good against combo

Obviously it should be good against combo, but I see it more as some kind of anti-tempo card, so it should also be good against Thresh and other tempo driven decks. As I said, it's probably useful against more decks than Samurai which only really hurts Ichorid, don't you think?

[Maëlig]

Burn is a sucky matchup for D&T, as they're usually a little bit faster. You need a Jitte or a really fast hand to have a prayer. Sideboarding should be something like -4 StP, -2 Mangara, +3 Tivadar, +3 Jotun Grunt. If you're sure they don't have Pithing Needles, you can side out O-Rings for Runed Halos.

I've always found burn to be a favorable MU, as you have quite a few valuable options against it. The Lin+CoK soft-lock helps alot in this MU, as does TB post-board (yes, I still think he's decent in the SB). I wouldn't side out stp, you can always use it in response to a burn on TB or a jitted creature, or even a grunt that is about to die. It's also a time-walk (sometimes two) in the face of the opponent, which can give you time to kill.

I think they could be quite good in the main. I mean, aren't they overall more useful than Samurais, for example? I could see myself maindecking 3, with the last one in the board, and having all 4 Samurais in the SB.

Canonist would certainly be better than SotPC MD, if only for the thresh MU. But I think its place is in the SB, as is SotPC.

[Mantis]

First of all, I haven't tested this deck extesively like most of the posters here have, so if I'm completely off just tell me. Otherwise, an outsider can sometimes give some valuable information you wouldn't notice as it's common to fall in love with a deck and therefore lose objectivity.

Obviously it should be good against combo, but I see it more as some kind of anti-tempo card, so it should also be good against Thresh and other tempo driven decks. As I said, it's probably useful against more decks than Samurai which only really hurts Ichorid, don't you think?

Yes, I agree. I wasn't familiar with the deck, but it just seems that running a 2/2 vanilla (because that's what it is in a lot of matchups) in general looks kind of bad. I don't see Samurai in Maeligs list either, Knight of the Holy Nimbus seems much better for starters.

Although the card is testworthy my gut tells me it's bad. But hey, give it a shot and if it works out that's great, if it doesn't there are plenty of other good options available.

[CleverPetriDish]

I proxied for Canonist last night and tried it out against Goblins and Thresh. And I hated it.

It acts like a Standstill, and it gets in the way of tricks with Stonecloaker and Karakas. I would have preferred a Gizzly Bear.

[Kuma]

I've always found burn to be a favorable MU, as you have quite a few valuable options against it. The Lin+CoK soft-lock helps alot in this MU, as does TB post-board (yes, I still think he's decent in the SB). I wouldn't side out stp, you can always use it in response to a burn on TB or a jitted creature, or even a grunt that is about to die. It's also a time-walk (sometimes two) in the face of the opponent, which can give you time to kill.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't establish the lock any earlier than turn three, and not likely until turn four or five. It requires Lin and four lands. If I'm playing burn, I just bolt your Lin while she's sick and watch you fumble for another one. If you're waiting for Karakas to protect her, we're looking at turn five or six, and by then you should be dead.

True Believer helps, but it's only a speedbump. Sometimes that's all you need, sometimes it isn't enough.

I dunno, maybe you guys are right about StP, but the best Burn list in my meta runs Cursed Scroll and Pithing Needle, and I don't follow the Burn thread. With the slowing of D&T, the deck has lost a step against Burn. I don't think it's favorable for us anymore.

The thing people forget about SotPC is that it's a 3/3 in combat, which is huge when you want to trade with a Mongoose or block 2/2 goblins. That's why I maindeck him.

Cannonist doesn't have any application outside of the combo matchup, and you know how I feel about preparing for combo.

[CleverPetriDish]

I'm with you on all of these points, Kuma. Canonist has to prove itself before I will remove a Samurai for it.

And D+T HAS slowed a bit. And few people play Silver Knight or True Believer in it anymore. And importantly, Burn has gotten a lot better. The threats are more varied and efficient. I recall never being afraid of Burn, but not any more.

But you are loco not to play STP.

[kensook]

The key cards to winning the Burn MU are Rishadan Port and StP. These buy you time to get things like life gain via jitte or land removal via mangara, etc. The problem is though, I play burn also and there is a D&T player in my local meta that still plays TB (he also plays cannonist & wasteland) and I have won every match I've had with him (4 or 5). Maybe its a matchup we need to improve on. Just my personal info on the MU, might not apply to all of you guys.

[Kuma]

How would anyone ever get a significant number of Mangara activations to resolve vs Burn? If you burn Mangara in response to Karakas, he dies instead of being bounced. Plus the Burn player always has a chance to hit him while he's sick. Always.

How does Rishadan Port hurt a deck that's almost all Instants?

I'm 1-2 vs Burn, so it's small sample size, but it seems other people are having problems with the match too.

[Galroth]

I maindeck Auriok Champion... Burn has never been an issue.

[kensook]

How does Rishadan Port hurt a deck that's almost all Instants?

The fact is that it's not all instants. Burn generally has creatures consisting of Mogg Fanatic/Keldon Marauders/Ball Lightning/Spike Elemental, and then 4 of Chain Lightnings, Rift Bolts, Lava Spikes, and then some number of Flame Rifts and Flamebreaks. I'm sure these are enough sorceries/creatures to slow them off with Rishadan Port. This plus removing even one mountain that they have with Mangara (I wasn't really referring to Mangara and Karakas combo, just Mangara removing 1 land has enough effect on them because of their land count) and life gain from StP and Jitte will buy you time to beat them.

[Pienterekaak]

Hi all, im new to D&T and i read through the entire thread.
i want to enter a tournament in a month and i wonder if D&T is the right choise for that. the meta would probally be:
landstill,dreadstill,ichorid,TES,threshold,painters combo and aggro elf.
i almost have D&T complete, but i can also play with Goyf Sligh. what would you guys suggest?

[Kuma]

D&T (Traditional list) is bad against Landstill and TES, and solid against Dreadstill, Ichorid, and Thresh. Painter is generally solid, but it depends on their list. I have no idea how good D&T is vs Aggro Elf, but it's probably not a terrible or amazing matchup.

I don't know Goyf Sligh's matchups, so I can't tell you which is the better deck to play in that meta. D&T seems like a solid, but not amazing choice in that meta.

If I expected to play against those decks, I'd play Ichorid.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Burn isn't almost all instants. It's instants are:

Fireblast (port has no bearing on this)-4x
Lightning Bolt-4x
Price of Progress-2x MDed if played
Magma Jet-2x-4x played
Incinerate-2x/3x/4x played

it's sorceries are:
Rift Bolt-4x played
Lava Spike-4x played
Chain Lightning-4x played
Browbeat-3x played
Browbeat-2x/3x played
Flamebreak-3x played
Flame Rift-2x/4x played if played
Mogg Fanatic/Marauders-4x played of one (most of the time just one).

Sorceries are much more prevalent in burn lists.

However, if they do it right they can save their instants for your Port activations to work around the mana screw. I'm not sure one land would matter in reference to Mangara. Maybe paired with a Port, but they run between 19-20 lands. I've only ever seen one build with lower than that. They have Browbeat (I don't care what people say about it never working the way you want it to, this card is good in Burn if you know how to play it) and Magma Jet (Instant)to find more lands if need be. Game 2 you will see Needles go into the burn list, so your Ports will become useless.

I don't play D&T but I thought I'd give a bit of insight on burn...

Pce,

--DC

[Kuma]

Yeah, but when you look at the mana cost of those sorceries, port isn't going to do much. Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, and Mogg Fanatic cost one, Flame Rift and Marauders cost two, and the rest cost three. The smart burn player will just tap the land you ported to play instants and use the one(s) you didn't tap for sorceries. Port might keep Burn off their Browbeats and Flamebreaks, and be randomly awesome when they draw two or fewer lands, but I've found the card to be underwhelming vs Burn most of the time.

[Pienterekaak]

i played burn for a long time, and port doesnt really do much agianst it. it happend more than once that i killed a opponent with only 1 land (so with port in play they need 2 lands).
and i have a quesion about Samurai of the pale curtain.. how much does this card actually do? it does not stop dredging or instant/sorceries going to graveyards. And i agree that true beliver is not worth the trouble, TES and Belcher just win on tokens and solidarty bounces him. At the moment i took out the samurai's and replaced them with epochasite.
which is a fine card, which i would like to test. but the problem is, i dont have any good 2 drops anymore.. so what card could fill this slot best?
my current list after reading this topic is:
4x Æther Vial
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Epochrasite
3x Flickerwisp
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stonecloaker
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Karakas
11x Plains(A)
3x Rishadan Port
3x Cataclysm

edit- is knight of medograin a option?