Yeah, if you play at least 2 caverns the downside of having a funky manabase vs delver decks is made up by the upside of uncounterable moms, thalias, maguses. It's a nice complement to aether vial. I hated cavern in the mono-white build but am its biggest advocate now.
While I agree that Cavern is better in R/W, let's not forget that it's also a hindrance when you want to activate your SFM. That's something to keep in mind.
The biggest reason to play R/W is just the flexibility given to us because a: we're no longer stuck in 1 colour and b: we get to have some form of library manipulation on the back of Recruiter. He's not quite as powerful as DTT or Brainstorm but then again what is.
Dread of night? Sick, tutor up a Relic Warder/Hedge Mage. Playing a deck full of delicious non-basic lands? I'm sure they were expensive how about we we turn them into mountains? Terminus? Sick, Recruiter for Recruiter.
I haven't been punished yet, but I imagine I will eventually cop it. I think 6 fetches is the minimum number you can play and even then it's pushing it, especially if you ever want to cast sudden demise. Creatures are easier to cast because of cavern and vial, but sometimes you'll get stuck with a sudden demise in your hand and no way to cast it. I should point out that this is all based on my bad experiences when trying to cast Rest in Peace in R/G/W Goblins, and the manabase had the same number of white sources as you have red sources in your proposal above (6 red fetches and 1 plateau). I'm still a bit iffy on playing 2 caverns let alone 3, because stoneforge activations (like gempalm incinerators) can't be done through cavern.
Haven't tried the Hedge Mage but I will be next time I play. I know the R/W Painter guys use Hedge Mage (because they also can't beat an active Jitte) and they also use 7-8 colourless lands. That said they also use basic mountains. I just feel like Vandal and Relic Warder are too narrow, and Vandal and Hedge Mage don't do shit against Omni, especially on turn 1.
Edit: Our Magus turns our non-basics into mountains and in the matches where we'll want to blow up artifacts odds are we'll want magus too (stone/deathblade decks). The Hedge-Mage shatter mode might be hard to get against mono-white DNT but I feel like we're pretty favoured in that matchup anyway.
Thanks for all the feedback people! I went back through the thread and saw iatee's 3-color list post. If a 3rd color is pretty easily splashable, what could/should it be to shore up the deck's worst match-up(s)? Is it even worth it? It seems to me that moving in on a 2nd color stretches the mana-base pretty thin as it is. What do you all consider the worst match-ups for the W/r list anyway? I've read some people say Miracles is horrible; is that due to the counter-top lock?
I've played a fairly large set of games w/ 3 caverns and stoneforge activation problems are pretty rare. The more common issues are awkwardness w/ hardcasting flickerwisp or not having a basic plains by the time you want to magus. (The second thing is less a problem when I'm playing 3 plains rather than 2 though.) But just having one pure white source by turn 3-4 is statistically safe.
I still think the 3c deck is doable (especially if the 3rd color creature is a human) I just haven't found a card where the upside is worth it.
The miracles matchup is in the r/w deck's favor and the only real issue is monastery mentor. The countertop lock isn't that big an issue and they often side out their counterbalances.
The matchups that are worse for the r/w list than the w list are the tempo decks w/ a fast clock. Burn, u/r delver, rug delver (not as scary as u/r delver)
Miracles is much easier to beat with R/W. Recruiter lols at terminus and if you play sharpshooter their mentor tokens aren't scary at all.
I agree with iatee though - decks like burn and rug delver are harder to beat. Only having 2 Karakas means you probably have to mull harder against Reanimator to find Karakas too.
I don't think rug delver is a sub 50% matchup even now, it's just not the blowout it usually is. You give them a ton of stifle targets, but sometimes that can be a good thing if you play it right. The other day I baited someone w/ a fetch that I didn't actually need so that my stoneforge's etb trigger would resolve when I vialed it in after. And magus of the moon is very good, game winning most of the time. But imperial recruiter is pretty durdly in the matchup and the RUG delver is built to punish durdle.
U/R delver is just the worst though. Fast clock, TNN + hard to punish manabase + DTT. But it's not like mono-white has a great matchup here either.
Thoughts on cutting 1 flicker, 1 SFM in rw version to shore up room for more 1 ofs? Salvation talking about mainbaord relic, which I kinda like. Can trips in worst case scenario. But seems like most decks abusing gy somehow either with snap, loam, delve
There are definitely going to be metagames where mainboard relic is fine-to-good but I don't think the deck really wants that effect main if it's not on a creature. And in that aforementioned metagame I think a mainboard RIP is probably better. Even its free-ness is a little easy to misjudge, it costs tempo, makes opening hands harder to judge, w/ Thalia you could be spending 3 to cycle it, etc.
If the rw list wants random one ofs it's gonna be powerful tutor targets.
Fiendslayer isn't pro red, though, which can be relevant vs Pyromancer tokens.
And why would you cut two of the strongest cards in the deck, SFM and Flickerwisp, for mediocre tutor targets? The deck needs some kind of consistency out of Recruiter, too. Also, you would also cut another 2-drop (SFM) for a 3-drop in a deck that is already loaded with 3-drops. I'm not a fan of that.
For tutor targets in R/W (both main and in side) I'm going to be testing with Paladin en-Vec, Fiendslayer Paladin, Mystic Crusader, Mirran Crusader, Mangara, Vryn Wingmare, Cunning Sparkmage and Goblin Sharpshooter. Has anyone explored other red, especially legendary creatures in the 2-3 CMC range that we might want to be considering for possible inclusion?
It could just be wrong, but Paladin En-Vec looks like what I want to get past and block all day vs Tasigur, Angler, and Pyromancer and to survive in a meta full of Lightning Bolt, and to a lesser extent Murderous Cut and Disfigure.
Cockatrice: Bosque
My recruiters haven't come in so I haven't gotten a chance to try the splash yet. So for those of you who have are Pia and Kiran Nalaar an option for something that we can play? Or are they simply too expensive mana wise? Seems like they would be perfect in grindy games, and you can get value out of both flickerwisp and karakas with them however 4 mana is a lot...
Seems awful costly, we don't want to tick up to 4 for just that, and with 4 mana we probably want to be porting instead. If I was going to play 4 CMC creatures, I think Restoration Angel synergizes better with protecting our hate. Disclaimer, I also like the card, providing 3 creatures, and giving direct damage potential with extra Vials or the Thopters sounds fun. Maybe I'll take it to modern this weekend with a full set of Restos and Flickerwisps for laughs.
Cockatrice: Bosque
Lately I've been feeling like Mirran Crusader just isn't a good metagame call anymore. Too many bolts and young pyromancer idiots getting in the way of the lad, so I'm going to replace him with Paladin En Vec.
Pros:
- Beats most removal barring STP, making suiting up much easier.
- Gets around dread of night
- Can get through the young pyromancer tokens or can sit back and block a Gurmag Angler.
Cons:
- Slower clock
- Is worse against the lower tier decks that you sometimes see bumming around like Maverick and Elves.
Thoughts?
Edit: Just realised Bosque wrote pretty much the same thing earlier. derp.
Re: viability of Crusader in today's meta, this deck is so different that running Crusader is the least surprising thing, but it did well:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=91022
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Crusader serves two purposes - it's a beater and it's a trump card in B/G heavy matches. The fact that it's also a beater makes it a good card to have on the field vs any combo deck, miracles, the mirror - even if the protection is usually irrelevant. And if you successfully hook it up to a piece of equipment and hit once, you've probably won the game. 12 damage immediately with skull or sofi. Paladin en vec doesn't have any of that upside, it just has the trump card in a lightning bolt matchup upside. A vanilla non-hatebear 2/2 for 3 is a terrible thing against most of the field. So I think it's pretty clearly unplayable main. And even as sideboard material, I think Fieldslayer Paladin is better for the lightning-bolt matchups.
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